A public Livestream recording by Clinician and Researcher Rebecca C. Mandeville, LMFT, CCTP, from her Substack, 'Healing the Scapegoat Wound' (recorded on May 6, 2025).
Interestingly enough, the most empathy I’ve received about my upbringing came when I compared it to the coercive control Britney Spears endured. The only real difference was that I wasn’t used for financial gain..so there was no legal conservatorship to trap me in. But the control, the silencing, the emotional manipulation she experienced…no different than FSA (although I only read the first 3 chapters of her autobiography).
Thanks to her book, people finally had a framework to understand my trauma responses and emotional outbursts. For once, instead of being called “too sensitive” or “dramatic,” I got: “Oh my God… that happened to you?”
It just goes to show how much society idolizes celebrities. I could tell the exact same story and be met with silence or disbelief but say “it was like what happened to Britney or Drew Barrymore,” and suddenly it becomes valid and believable, even understandable . Like… what?
I completely understand you, how we struggled dealing with every day people and situations. Trauma responses through our entire lives leaves us baffled and so confused. The rage i feel when someone or something is being abused sends me into a rage. And all i want to do is help, is a trauma response. Your not alone so I’m sending you a big warm hug from NY.
Your reference to the Hallmark cards that celebrate special days really connected with me as I have been very aware for years of struggling to choose cards at these times, typically standing in front of a wall of cards, none of which I can identify with or want to select. It’s such a challenge and induces feelings of isolation and sadness. I hate these times but I don’t have the courage to not buy something and after searching from shop to shop eventually find something I can tolerate.
Oh Rebecca, I missed the podcast yesterday because I take care of a woman with bad MS, I was working. I’m an empath and a scapegoat. But God help you if you abused an animal or someone I care about in front of me. I would make you pay no questions asked and at that point consequences mean not a thing to me. Just ask the woman I ran into who was beating a duck to death with a stick because it was getting too close to her pool. Don’t get me wrong i can’t kill a spider, I’m far from violent but I was the underdog in my family so i know very well what it’s like to have no protection. When I was listening to you get choked up about you not getting much kindness i stopped what I was doing to come in my room and write this. I wish I had an opportunity to talk to your family, they’d leave with their head spinning. I guess I want you to know someone does care and would have went to bat for you. You’re amazing so don’t let anyone tell you different.
Thank you, Joanna, I so appreciate this. It is only recently that I began to realize how terribly unprotected I have felt for most of my life. Very vulnerable feeling. And, until a few years ago, was not assertive and had trouble standing up for myself. It has been a journey to find the 'Protector' within me. And of course, when I speak up now, the recipient at times cannot support my honest communication, but will lash out, defend, or leave / end the conversation in a manner that can feel punitive. So your message here, although symbolic, primarily, means much to me. Let's just say I know why I got 'big dogs' about 15 years ago - I felt protected for the first time, and that is not an exaggeration or something I am saying lightly.
I think I am the way I am is because no one ever protected me either and I felt unsafe my entire life. Being over protective of animals or people that can’t fight back sends me into a rage and I must do something. I think it’s a trauma response. I couldn’t believe you answered my question, so thank you so much for the excellent explanation of why most people can’t understand FSA. It also reminded me to have some compassion for them as well.
I came into the livestream late, and just listened to what I missed. There was a lot of ‘meat’ there! A lot relative to my experience. Thank you for seeing my fear. Tears of gratitude.
I made a comment in the chat about Sam Vaknin - of course, you would have known that he knows of you! In some situations, better not to comment until listening to the fuuuuulllll presentation! For me, anyway. No harm, though.
At my age (77+), I truly cannot go back and start over. What I CAN do is see clearly what was, how it affected every aspect of my life, and be as good to me as I can be. I was rejected, shamed, and blamed before I was even born. That, of course just continued, while embedded in my nervous system. Understanding that gives me the way to not blame ME where I’m not to blame. AND, I was right - there was something very wrong. Knowing that, too, is affirming, validating for me. It wasn’t only my “overactive imagination,” as I was told.
So, those things, and more, are the things that do give me a much bigger measure of peacefulness than I’ve ever known. Still have some very dark moments - who wouldn’t? But the peacefulness is the bigger thing right now. And, it seems to me, that in aging that’s pretty darned important. Sigh.
Loved this, your smile when you talked about operasinging as a toddler, your response about opening up - slowing down - making space. Yes a 100% true 🙏🌱❤️. I had to whatch everything once more. The topic you cover from 35:30 to 37:00. I had to hear this 10 times because something in me blocked it. Yes - this is my angst and my anxiety. The lack of solid foundation in the FOO. Thank you for doing these lives - for beeing there for all of us 🌿❤️🌸
Hello Dear ones...Soul Fam I would say... I was so moved listening this live (not finished yet, though. Cannot consume this kind of precious information too fast and I take time to let new stuff settle) It brought tears to my eyes hearing how much it means to Rebecca herself feeling relaxed and supported by this extra supportive community we all have created. Literally - thsi kind of abuse cannot be understood to the core unless experienced...
The part when Rebecca brought examples of over-achievers behaviour, when she aimed for being the smartest kid in her class... so cute, but off course the intention was trauma related...it brought up from my memory how I was desperate to be liked and validated by my high spectrum NPD mother...at the age of about 6 I started to try an alternative behaviour as I had seen that me being a kid like kid does not impress my mom, I acted out like I was a grown up. I went to talk to her and her friends into living room faking to be like a grow up and talking on subjects like them...about news etc. And later that evening when we the guests started to leave, one of them was a school teacher and she started to teach my mother how she should teach me to behave like a normal kid, because obviously I had been weird and annoying to the company.. I instantly knew she was talking about me, even though she tried to not name my name and assumed that I would not understand. I still remember how I got my heart broken to pieces - another failed attempt to be validated and another reassurance my mom nevereverever stood up for me....
And I am an underachiever for sure. The only achievement in my life is that I have a roof over my head and food on the table. Nothing else... the roof is also a rented real estate. I have never been able to work myself up to be point of getting the loan from bank to buy us our own home. My mom was able to kill all my ambition and flush to the toilet all my self-belief. Thus brains dopamine production is impaired.
I am totally able to understand the mechanisms of how each of these `pathologies`` arise and I can feel that the other end of the same rope is not great either, but still. Being an underachiever seems a total waste of a lifetime. I hope there is still a possibility to turn this around.
Loved this comment Liis 💕. And the story from when you were a young girl - it brought up my own memories. I did much of the same. I acted like a grown up. I went in the other direction - the overachiever 😮💨. I have a lot of stuff - and almost lost my health on the road of overachieving. Now I just want peace, health, real love. I just want to live 🌱
Thanks, Caroline! ♥️ for your share and for acknowledgement! I really appreciate! I am glad you finished before you lost your health and have come to realise what you do now! You certainly deserve just to live, relax, enjoy life and accomplishments. Most of all - true love! Much blessings🥰
My self- belief and aspiration was crushed. And then she (my mother) says she's unable to understand how I went from a perfect student on top of the class to a stay at home mother.
I sometimes feel like a neutered animal, like they succeeded in breaking me down.
Exactly, JS10, like you said! They succeeded :( I am so sad to hear you also had to have such an horrible experience. As a hallmark of narcisstic mothers towards their daughters is envy and jealousy, wanting to feel that they have done better in life, so they mostly consciously work on breaking their daughters self-esteem and belief in themselves to have them doing poorly in life and/or even being financially depending on them....only to not loose power and emotional energy to feed on. I have also been a victim of exactly that. And later in life she told me " it is no wonder my husband left me, because I am so and so" even though she was working on sabotaging our relationship too. And then even later, when I was alone with kids and she had to help me raise them (her win ofc) - she had a good place to say that "you can`t even handle you life". Unfortunately for her, when kids grew older, I did not need her help anymore, I threw her out of my place several times, it was never polite and quiet and neighbours obviuosly thought that I was the crazy one...
I don`t mind, but I won my independency and never went back. I have survived my own, thats her loss. But for myself I would prefer to do even better for sure.
Never too late. As I said in the video, I prefer the word 'aspiration' to achievement - less pathologizing and takes out any misplaced shame. Thank you for your full and insightful comment, Liis, much appreciated.
Thank You, Rebecca! I really hope with all my heart, that it not too late. Thanks for the specification! It truly changes the meaning. Much appreciated. 💕
As I listen to you speak about the effects of neglect, I am reminded of a memory. One day, one of my sisters (who was about 6 or 7) decided to get my mother a gift and bought a plant from the school fair. She didn't want my mother to see it before Mother's Day and put it in her bedroom closet. I remember my mother saying, "I don't know what kind of surprise you brought home, but if it's alive, it might die if it is in the closet." Children (in fact, all Beings) need affirmation and nourishment of their unique beingness in order to thrive as they unfold and develop....the same way plants need light and water. When that happens...eventually it teaches them how to give it to themselves, later in life.....
We will be the ones that create spaces where children can thrive.....by being those spaces that lift them and give them the freedom to unfold in the light and the nourishment of love and deep recognition of the gifts that they all are and will bring to the world.
I’m listening to the recording due to the time zones, and I’m about half way through - excellent talk - thanks. In particular I found the part on “slowing down” very interesting and the “fear of it”.
I find it difficult to slow down that but not for the example reasons you mentioned. (This is worth doing a clip on in my opinion) I’ve never heard anyone mention that point before.
Also, the hardening of the body was another very important point which iI hadn’t realized.
I spent my whole life waiting... for a mother, a mentor, somebody who would support me. For me, "underachiever" is an understatement! Hearing you explain how this childhood trauma affected my whole life is painful, but necessary!
This was an excellent video. As far as your book went I had zero problems reading the entire book, it’s perfect and the Bible on FSA. Again thank you for taking my question and you have no idea how much you are helping me.
Yes. Coming to terms with just how profoundly impacted I have been by my fsa'ing foo. But also, that most of my younger childhood was marked by "just" neglect. It wasn't until my late teens that I stood up for my younger sibs (scared sh*tless to do), and moved out of the family home (only bc I moved in with a string of boyfriends at first) that the scapegoating began in earnest. Even then, neither parent nor most siblings ever reached out, showed an interest. To be sent out into the adult world, un-loved, un-cared about, un-known. Is that traumatic invalidation? I mean, you can't invalidate someone you have shown absolutely no interest in.
Happy birthday to you happy birthday to you happy birthday. God bless you happy birthday to you. I’m singing to you now because tomorrow I will have my injections in my eye, and I will not be able to text anyone. My vision will be very, very poor. I just wanted you to know.🎂
I need kindness, this is the message from my mother. For the last four yrs I fought with her about calling on my birthday. A few days ago she asked me to come over so we can go away together.
So what did I do I flew into a rage that once again a simple request was ignored. I should have known she’d get me and why did I think things would be different this time. The NC rules must go into effect immediately. I said some bad things to her and she got the better of me again. I would have won if I just said thank you mom.
Any kind words to help me out, I’m not doing very well.
Joanna, I’m heading out of internet range right now, but wanted to say how sorry I am. You deserve better. I did post a Mother’s Day support chat, you may want to check in there, it’s the most recent Chat in our main Chat space. I’ll be back on Tuesday. I sent out a post this morning also to paid subscribers and I just added my resource self-care list to to that post. You can find the post on the app or on the home page of my Substack. Take good care.
This was so great Rebecca! What you said about your opera singing career deeply resonated with me. I too trained in opera but was pushed so hard as a parent was fulfilling vicarious wishes, I ended up abandoning ship and was equally lost. I am glad you put a name to it: grief.
Interestingly I had a wonderful vocal coach who took me under her wing for a few years, and was a great support emotionally, and something about you reminds me of her!
I loved the aria “When I am laid in Earth” (Dido’s lament). A university teacher told me I was too young to sing it. But something about the tragedy, intensity, depth and haunting melody attracted me.
Yes, I'd put this loss in the category of 'Disenfranchised Grief' - which I dedicate a chapter to in my introductory book on FSA, 'Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed'. I enjoy singing German Lieder and Italian arias best - I am drawn to the more passionate, angry, soulful, or mournful (no surprise!). How wonderful you also sang - Do you still sing?
Interestingly enough, the most empathy I’ve received about my upbringing came when I compared it to the coercive control Britney Spears endured. The only real difference was that I wasn’t used for financial gain..so there was no legal conservatorship to trap me in. But the control, the silencing, the emotional manipulation she experienced…no different than FSA (although I only read the first 3 chapters of her autobiography).
Thanks to her book, people finally had a framework to understand my trauma responses and emotional outbursts. For once, instead of being called “too sensitive” or “dramatic,” I got: “Oh my God… that happened to you?”
It just goes to show how much society idolizes celebrities. I could tell the exact same story and be met with silence or disbelief but say “it was like what happened to Britney or Drew Barrymore,” and suddenly it becomes valid and believable, even understandable . Like… what?
I completely understand you, how we struggled dealing with every day people and situations. Trauma responses through our entire lives leaves us baffled and so confused. The rage i feel when someone or something is being abused sends me into a rage. And all i want to do is help, is a trauma response. Your not alone so I’m sending you a big warm hug from NY.
Your reference to the Hallmark cards that celebrate special days really connected with me as I have been very aware for years of struggling to choose cards at these times, typically standing in front of a wall of cards, none of which I can identify with or want to select. It’s such a challenge and induces feelings of isolation and sadness. I hate these times but I don’t have the courage to not buy something and after searching from shop to shop eventually find something I can tolerate.
So deeply moved by this Live, Rebecca's compassion, words & every comment. So very glad to be part of this wonderful community. Thank you.
Loved seeing you in the live chat, June, and glad you could take a break from your castle adventures!
Thanks Rebecca, it's stunning here, shall post some photos when I can.
Oh Rebecca, I missed the podcast yesterday because I take care of a woman with bad MS, I was working. I’m an empath and a scapegoat. But God help you if you abused an animal or someone I care about in front of me. I would make you pay no questions asked and at that point consequences mean not a thing to me. Just ask the woman I ran into who was beating a duck to death with a stick because it was getting too close to her pool. Don’t get me wrong i can’t kill a spider, I’m far from violent but I was the underdog in my family so i know very well what it’s like to have no protection. When I was listening to you get choked up about you not getting much kindness i stopped what I was doing to come in my room and write this. I wish I had an opportunity to talk to your family, they’d leave with their head spinning. I guess I want you to know someone does care and would have went to bat for you. You’re amazing so don’t let anyone tell you different.
Thank you, Joanna, I so appreciate this. It is only recently that I began to realize how terribly unprotected I have felt for most of my life. Very vulnerable feeling. And, until a few years ago, was not assertive and had trouble standing up for myself. It has been a journey to find the 'Protector' within me. And of course, when I speak up now, the recipient at times cannot support my honest communication, but will lash out, defend, or leave / end the conversation in a manner that can feel punitive. So your message here, although symbolic, primarily, means much to me. Let's just say I know why I got 'big dogs' about 15 years ago - I felt protected for the first time, and that is not an exaggeration or something I am saying lightly.
I think I am the way I am is because no one ever protected me either and I felt unsafe my entire life. Being over protective of animals or people that can’t fight back sends me into a rage and I must do something. I think it’s a trauma response. I couldn’t believe you answered my question, so thank you so much for the excellent explanation of why most people can’t understand FSA. It also reminded me to have some compassion for them as well.
I came into the livestream late, and just listened to what I missed. There was a lot of ‘meat’ there! A lot relative to my experience. Thank you for seeing my fear. Tears of gratitude.
I made a comment in the chat about Sam Vaknin - of course, you would have known that he knows of you! In some situations, better not to comment until listening to the fuuuuulllll presentation! For me, anyway. No harm, though.
At my age (77+), I truly cannot go back and start over. What I CAN do is see clearly what was, how it affected every aspect of my life, and be as good to me as I can be. I was rejected, shamed, and blamed before I was even born. That, of course just continued, while embedded in my nervous system. Understanding that gives me the way to not blame ME where I’m not to blame. AND, I was right - there was something very wrong. Knowing that, too, is affirming, validating for me. It wasn’t only my “overactive imagination,” as I was told.
So, those things, and more, are the things that do give me a much bigger measure of peacefulness than I’ve ever known. Still have some very dark moments - who wouldn’t? But the peacefulness is the bigger thing right now. And, it seems to me, that in aging that’s pretty darned important. Sigh.
Thank you SO much.
Loved this, your smile when you talked about operasinging as a toddler, your response about opening up - slowing down - making space. Yes a 100% true 🙏🌱❤️. I had to whatch everything once more. The topic you cover from 35:30 to 37:00. I had to hear this 10 times because something in me blocked it. Yes - this is my angst and my anxiety. The lack of solid foundation in the FOO. Thank you for doing these lives - for beeing there for all of us 🌿❤️🌸
Hello Dear ones...Soul Fam I would say... I was so moved listening this live (not finished yet, though. Cannot consume this kind of precious information too fast and I take time to let new stuff settle) It brought tears to my eyes hearing how much it means to Rebecca herself feeling relaxed and supported by this extra supportive community we all have created. Literally - thsi kind of abuse cannot be understood to the core unless experienced...
The part when Rebecca brought examples of over-achievers behaviour, when she aimed for being the smartest kid in her class... so cute, but off course the intention was trauma related...it brought up from my memory how I was desperate to be liked and validated by my high spectrum NPD mother...at the age of about 6 I started to try an alternative behaviour as I had seen that me being a kid like kid does not impress my mom, I acted out like I was a grown up. I went to talk to her and her friends into living room faking to be like a grow up and talking on subjects like them...about news etc. And later that evening when we the guests started to leave, one of them was a school teacher and she started to teach my mother how she should teach me to behave like a normal kid, because obviously I had been weird and annoying to the company.. I instantly knew she was talking about me, even though she tried to not name my name and assumed that I would not understand. I still remember how I got my heart broken to pieces - another failed attempt to be validated and another reassurance my mom nevereverever stood up for me....
And I am an underachiever for sure. The only achievement in my life is that I have a roof over my head and food on the table. Nothing else... the roof is also a rented real estate. I have never been able to work myself up to be point of getting the loan from bank to buy us our own home. My mom was able to kill all my ambition and flush to the toilet all my self-belief. Thus brains dopamine production is impaired.
I am totally able to understand the mechanisms of how each of these `pathologies`` arise and I can feel that the other end of the same rope is not great either, but still. Being an underachiever seems a total waste of a lifetime. I hope there is still a possibility to turn this around.
Thank You!
Loved this comment Liis 💕. And the story from when you were a young girl - it brought up my own memories. I did much of the same. I acted like a grown up. I went in the other direction - the overachiever 😮💨. I have a lot of stuff - and almost lost my health on the road of overachieving. Now I just want peace, health, real love. I just want to live 🌱
Thanks, Caroline! ♥️ for your share and for acknowledgement! I really appreciate! I am glad you finished before you lost your health and have come to realise what you do now! You certainly deserve just to live, relax, enjoy life and accomplishments. Most of all - true love! Much blessings🥰
I relate to your experience.
My self- belief and aspiration was crushed. And then she (my mother) says she's unable to understand how I went from a perfect student on top of the class to a stay at home mother.
I sometimes feel like a neutered animal, like they succeeded in breaking me down.
Exactly, JS10, like you said! They succeeded :( I am so sad to hear you also had to have such an horrible experience. As a hallmark of narcisstic mothers towards their daughters is envy and jealousy, wanting to feel that they have done better in life, so they mostly consciously work on breaking their daughters self-esteem and belief in themselves to have them doing poorly in life and/or even being financially depending on them....only to not loose power and emotional energy to feed on. I have also been a victim of exactly that. And later in life she told me " it is no wonder my husband left me, because I am so and so" even though she was working on sabotaging our relationship too. And then even later, when I was alone with kids and she had to help me raise them (her win ofc) - she had a good place to say that "you can`t even handle you life". Unfortunately for her, when kids grew older, I did not need her help anymore, I threw her out of my place several times, it was never polite and quiet and neighbours obviuosly thought that I was the crazy one...
I don`t mind, but I won my independency and never went back. I have survived my own, thats her loss. But for myself I would prefer to do even better for sure.
Never too late. As I said in the video, I prefer the word 'aspiration' to achievement - less pathologizing and takes out any misplaced shame. Thank you for your full and insightful comment, Liis, much appreciated.
Thank You, Rebecca! I really hope with all my heart, that it not too late. Thanks for the specification! It truly changes the meaning. Much appreciated. 💕
As I listen to you speak about the effects of neglect, I am reminded of a memory. One day, one of my sisters (who was about 6 or 7) decided to get my mother a gift and bought a plant from the school fair. She didn't want my mother to see it before Mother's Day and put it in her bedroom closet. I remember my mother saying, "I don't know what kind of surprise you brought home, but if it's alive, it might die if it is in the closet." Children (in fact, all Beings) need affirmation and nourishment of their unique beingness in order to thrive as they unfold and develop....the same way plants need light and water. When that happens...eventually it teaches them how to give it to themselves, later in life.....
Yes. I am 51 & finally seeing it all. Horrifying. 🙏
We will be the ones that create spaces where children can thrive.....by being those spaces that lift them and give them the freedom to unfold in the light and the nourishment of love and deep recognition of the gifts that they all are and will bring to the world.
I’m listening to the recording due to the time zones, and I’m about half way through - excellent talk - thanks. In particular I found the part on “slowing down” very interesting and the “fear of it”.
I find it difficult to slow down that but not for the example reasons you mentioned. (This is worth doing a clip on in my opinion) I’ve never heard anyone mention that point before.
Also, the hardening of the body was another very important point which iI hadn’t realized.
Hey everyone, I am slammed today but am looking forward to reading your comments and thoughtfully replying - likely tomorrow. Big Hugs, Rebecca
I spent my whole life waiting... for a mother, a mentor, somebody who would support me. For me, "underachiever" is an understatement! Hearing you explain how this childhood trauma affected my whole life is painful, but necessary!
This was an excellent video. As far as your book went I had zero problems reading the entire book, it’s perfect and the Bible on FSA. Again thank you for taking my question and you have no idea how much you are helping me.
Yes. Coming to terms with just how profoundly impacted I have been by my fsa'ing foo. But also, that most of my younger childhood was marked by "just" neglect. It wasn't until my late teens that I stood up for my younger sibs (scared sh*tless to do), and moved out of the family home (only bc I moved in with a string of boyfriends at first) that the scapegoating began in earnest. Even then, neither parent nor most siblings ever reached out, showed an interest. To be sent out into the adult world, un-loved, un-cared about, un-known. Is that traumatic invalidation? I mean, you can't invalidate someone you have shown absolutely no interest in.
Happy birthday to you happy birthday to you happy birthday. God bless you happy birthday to you. I’m singing to you now because tomorrow I will have my injections in my eye, and I will not be able to text anyone. My vision will be very, very poor. I just wanted you to know.🎂
I need kindness, this is the message from my mother. For the last four yrs I fought with her about calling on my birthday. A few days ago she asked me to come over so we can go away together.
So what did I do I flew into a rage that once again a simple request was ignored. I should have known she’d get me and why did I think things would be different this time. The NC rules must go into effect immediately. I said some bad things to her and she got the better of me again. I would have won if I just said thank you mom.
Any kind words to help me out, I’m not doing very well.
Joanna, I’m heading out of internet range right now, but wanted to say how sorry I am. You deserve better. I did post a Mother’s Day support chat, you may want to check in there, it’s the most recent Chat in our main Chat space. I’ll be back on Tuesday. I sent out a post this morning also to paid subscribers and I just added my resource self-care list to to that post. You can find the post on the app or on the home page of my Substack. Take good care.
I thought I did post there, I’m confused I guess sorry,
This was so great Rebecca! What you said about your opera singing career deeply resonated with me. I too trained in opera but was pushed so hard as a parent was fulfilling vicarious wishes, I ended up abandoning ship and was equally lost. I am glad you put a name to it: grief.
Interestingly I had a wonderful vocal coach who took me under her wing for a few years, and was a great support emotionally, and something about you reminds me of her!
I loved the aria “When I am laid in Earth” (Dido’s lament). A university teacher told me I was too young to sing it. But something about the tragedy, intensity, depth and haunting melody attracted me.
What are your favourite songs to sing?
Yes, I'd put this loss in the category of 'Disenfranchised Grief' - which I dedicate a chapter to in my introductory book on FSA, 'Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed'. I enjoy singing German Lieder and Italian arias best - I am drawn to the more passionate, angry, soulful, or mournful (no surprise!). How wonderful you also sang - Do you still sing?
❤️ this woman