Just a heads up that Ellen Barry of the New York Times released an article that many of you might like to read, Is Cutting Off Your Family Good Therapy?
PLEASE NOTE: To read this article, you may need to create a free account with the New York Times - there are a certain number of articles you can read there free every month. I was able to read this article for free without making an account so it could be you will have the same luck(!)
Ellen and I had a few exchanges via email in regard to this same article a few months ago. In these exchanges, I emphasized the fact that some adult children may have no choice but to limit or end contact due to the debilitating effects of complex trauma, betrayal trauma, toxic shame, traumatic invalidation, etc. stemming from what might be a lifetime of experiencing abusive family dynamics (including FSA). This is because (as many of you already know) it is difficult to gain traction in one’s healing if one’s nervous system is constantly being activated due to abusive family dynamics.
I also stressed that some adult survivors who end contact for the purpose of healing might choose to re-engage with family down the road once they are in a more stable place psycho-emotionally and understand how to tend to their nervous system and protect themselves from further abuse, but such examples were not included in this article.
Another important note: We licensed clinicians ARE indeed expected to become more directive when a client is in a crisis. This is even in our licensing exams. If a client is being continuously re-traumatized due to abusive family dynamics, we have an ethical obligation to educate the client regarding abuse and how such dynamics (and attendant abuse) effects one's nervous system and can result in PTSD or Complex Trauma symptoms. And we must invite them to consider stepping back from family interactions temporarily - or long-term - depending on each client's unique situation.
I’m opening up comments to everyone (both free and paid subscribers) and I’d love to hear your thoughts on the contents of Ellen’s article on ending contact with family here on this Discussion Thread.
Overall, this article seems pretty well-balanced, but it does seem slanted a little in the direction of the parents being cut off. It doesn’t go into detail at all about all the years that abused children try to tell their parents how much they’re harming them. It sounds very empathetic toward the parents being cut off, yet these
parents if you hear them through this article, they are still blaming their child, instead of taking any responsibility. However, there was one parent in the article who sounded a whole lot more healthy (owning what they did wrong) than my parents or siblings would ever sound. The one therapist trying to help parents, telling them it’s like a break up where someone’s giving you one last chance, telling them to be humble and not defend themselves, was wise. I’m glad the subject is being talked about. Hopefully, this will start a dialogue and other articles will come out that are more clear about why children feel the need to go to this extreme. I don’t think it helps the cut off cause much When people cut off their parents too quickly or easily. Thank you so much for your work in this field Rebecca, it’s helped
You're very welcome, Constance. Given my email exchange with Ellen while she was writing this piece, I do wish she had emphasized my point about the reality of complex trauma for many family abuse survivors and the need to create a healing space whereby one's nervous system is not constantly being activated - which is why trauma-treatment professionals like myself recommend stepping back from contact when initiating complex trauma treatment for family abuse survivors. (I also confirm the client suffers from Complex Trauma via the International Trauma Questionnaire (ITQ) distributed by the WHO so it is not just my 'opinion' I am going on here!)
I love to hear you talk about this. So, please go on as much or as little as you’d like to!!😁 Your approach is so good because it is focused on healing the adult child, while not bashing the parent they are estranged from. It feels so good to find people like you standing up for us. Thought I never would.💔❤️🩹
There is a time and place for bashing and venting early on in one's recovery, but we need to be mindful not to get stuck there...(!) I'll be discussing FSA recovery and processing anger in my article tomorrow, btw.
The NYT makes money by writing stories with a slant that generates clicks. How many white people in diners will they ask about Trump? Will they ever find Black people (the base of the Dem party) to ask about Biden? Never. Many people benefit from identifying toxicity in their families of origin and doing something about it. The NYT slant for clicks "is it wrong for people to take care of themselves? Parents say they've been insulted." Wow have the parents been waiting to click to find how wronged they've been! Thanks NYT, journalism in the capitalist age.
Thanks Rebecca. I'm unable to read the article without subscribing, and although the fee is pretty low, I don't want to add to my already long list of subscriptions. So my ideas aren't related to the article. It is difficult for people who have not experienced the trauma of scapegoating to understand a person's need to separate from the system that causes them harm. The night I made my decision so many years ago I was in bed unable to sleep, feeling as if an elephant were stomping on my chest. The small wiser part of me said that if I did not do something I would break. I would really and truly be damaged beyond repair. I decided to save myself that night. Although it has been painful to be alienated from my birth family, it has also allowed my nervous system to settle. I'd had panic attacks and anxiety. Both went down immediately upon deciding to go low-contact (which has now become no-contact). I firmly believe that without this needed space I would never discover who I am and I would lead a life dictated by the hurt and trauma passed down by my parents and their parents before them.
There's no blame in the statement that my abdomen and diaphragm clench in a painful manner the closer in physical proximity I am to my mother. This is a fact. I agree that low/no contact calms my nervous system.
Thx Debbie for your sharing.The sentence starting with..”I firmly believe that without this needed space” really resonated with me” bc it’s a complex situation. Thx💗
Yes, Sally, it is complex. I've thought about it all day. I can't speak for everyone's experience, but it seems to me that a person would not choose to separate from their family unless it was absolutely necessary for their survival. We would not judge a wife who was being assaulted by her partner for walking away to safety and getting a restraining order if need be. I find it curious that society is not nearly so ready to show compassion for people who have endured scapegoating abuse. It may be a matter of public education. Thank goodness for people like Rebecca who are spreading the word.
Exactly….Public Education is really needed and Rebecca who published a book about scapegoating is truly a pioneer regarding this topic. Total identification…
Gosh darn it, on my end I did not have to make an account, and when I do see the invitation now to make one, it says I can do it for free and not pay anything. My apologies for the confusion, and I do appreciate your still taking the time to comment and share your views. Your comment here mirrors precisely what I shared in my email exchange with the author of this piece, Ellen Barry, when she was working on this article. Specifically, that for FSA adult survivors, it is typically not possible to create a healing space when one is still being triggered / having their nervous system chronically activated via abusive systemic dynamics. I also stressed that we, as clinicians, indeed are ethically obligated to alert clients to this reality, and, if a client is in a genuine crisis, we are also ethically mandated by our licensing boards to become more directive, versus just letting them "figure it out" on their own.
On my end I could read it. It says you can make a free account as well so not sure what's up. I do apologize for any frustration caused by this unexpected development.
PLEASE NOTE: To read this article, you may need to make an account with the New York Times - there are a certain number of articles you can read there free every month. I was able to read this article for free without making an account so it could be you will have the same luck(!)
PLEASE NOTE: To read this article, you may need to make an account with the New York Times - there are a certain number of articles you can read there free every month. I was able to read this article for free without making an account so it could be you will have the same luck(!)
The article raised my hackles a bit, particularly the part about there being no scientific evidence that children cutting off their families is beneficial. This feels like minimization of the abuse. No one gets their panties in a twist when a Domestic Violence victim goes no contact with their abuser. The wheel of power and control applies to parents and their adult children too. Oh, and the idea that therapists are “encouraging estrangement” was also baffling. I don’t know a single mental health clinician who went to school and came away thinking that estrangement was a “goal” in family relationships. Here is my response in full: https://daughterinlawhell.substack.com/p/why-going-no-contact-is-so-controversial
Thanks for sharing your article regarding your response to Ellen's piece, Violet. I'll be including it in this week's Sunday Digest as well. As I have said many a-time, for many, many years: We no longer (as a society) tell victims of Domestic Violence to "work it out with their spouse - you don't want to break up your marriage, divorce is so bad for children." Yet, we tell family abuse survivors to work it out with their family as family is so "important". Another important note: We licensed clinicians ARE indeed expected to become more directive when a client is in a crisis. This is even in our licensing exams. If a client is being continuously re-traumatized due to abusive family dynamics, we have an ethical obligation to educate the client regarding abuse and how such dynamics (and attendant abuse) effects one's nervous system and can result in PTSD or Complex Trauma symptoms. And we must invite them to consider stepping back from family interactions temporarily - or long-term - depending on each client's unique situation.
I had never thought of it in those terms - of redirecting a client who is in crisis. Indeed, we have an obligation in those cases to educate and support.
I would have so benefited from my then therapist recognizing that I was getting retriggered with every visit home and making no progress. In the end, I surfaced it, and they retired, so it was a good transition. Just... at least 10 years passed with this routine playing out over and over. It feels like suffering could have been avoided.
True for so many FSA survivors - as well as those suffering from Complex Trauma. Hopefully, as more attention is brought to this matter publicly, Mental Health professionals will have more awareness regarding the reality of abusive family dynamics that are often systemic in nature.
Thank you!! I did not want to read it without hearing a synopsis first, as I have no interest in yet another soft on abusers piece that makes excuses and does not fully explore the valid reasons some of us have no choice but to go no contact.
I also have *never* understood why there is such a strong disconnect, almost to the point of seeming to be intentional commitment to refusing to admit, that domestic violence is domestic violence, no matter who commits it! If a romantic partner had done a FRACTION of the things to me that my abusive parent did, NO ONE would blame me for going no contact with him. NO ONE would secretly give him information about me without asking first. NO ONE would pressure me to re-establish contact with him, and certainly NO ONE would pressure me to be responsible in any way for his care. Ever.
Exactly my point in my reply to Violet above. Imagine if I, as a licensed clinician, told Domestic Abuse victims where the abuse is committed by a partner, "I can't tell you what to do in regard to whether or not you should remain in contact (or live with) your partner..you need to just figure that out as we go along here in therapy." This would be antithetical to my licensing mandate that dictates that I must offer clear direction to clients in a crisis. And chronic family abuse IS a crisis and can lead to severe psycho-emotional and physical symptoms - or worse.
I was able to read it for free for some reason and I don't have an account. If you do make an account, you are able to read a few articles for free every month but I understand if you don't want to do that.
I was able to read it for free for some reason and I don't have an account. If you do make an account, you are able to read a few articles for free every month but I understand if you don't want to do that.
I am so tired of people citing Joshua Coleman. He deliberately panders to the estranged parent deflection narratives. His own research on the attributions of estranged mothers shows that they endorse external attributions and refuse to validate their children's experiences or concerns.
The comment from Brian Briscoe of his "rejection" by his adult children as "the most painful experience of his adult life," is very indicative of toxic parents centering themselves and their experience over that of their adult child whose experience with THEM was so painful as to necessitate removing themselves from the relationship.
While the article does cover the reasons given by EAC, it does so in a slanting way insinuating that it is the wrong way. It is more of the same type of fodder toting the cultural expectations of children tolerating harmful behavior and the judgement that there are no true valid reasons for estrangement.
The fact that the article concluded with the quotes from Teahan is a positive as is the inclusion of the quote that it is not the job of children to maintain the relationship with their parents.
I find it interesting that people cut off their family for so much less than the violent, insane childhood I experienced. And good for them. As the person who was hated and mobbed, "all alone on the battlefield with all the guns pointed at me" all of my life, I found that after I went completely NO CONTACT, every aspect of my life, holidays, vacations and friendships are lovely. I would never let any of them back in. I started living the day I cut them off. I agree NO CONTACT should be an therapeutic option, it is very often the only way to freedom and healing.
Particularly for those who suffer from PTSD and/or Complex Trauma symptoms due to a lifetime of abusive dynamics. (And I recognize a line from my video there - wish I could remember which one it was!)
Yes, this. Like someone mentioned above, there is no opinion in my bodily responses to those people. That is a nervous system response, and their behavior led to that in me. Shortly before my first no contact with the main abuser, it was relayed to me through a third party that they were even aware of this. The abuser had told this person that I just seemed nervous and uncomfortable around them.
PLEASE NOTE: To read this article, you may need to make an account with the New York Times - there are a certain number of articles you can read there free every month. I was able to read this article for free without making an account and therefore didn't realize it asks for you to subscribe so it could be you will have the same luck (!)
I cut off the remainder just recently as one of them was expecting me to report to them and they never asked me anything nicely, always in a degrading way. I have felt enormous relief in that anytime I start to think about them, I tell myself that they’re cut off and I no longer need to think about them or worry anything (even though they’re many mikes away). I have no regrets about it and my heart literally beats at a slower pace for longer.
The body indeed does 'keep the score'. Something I mention in relation to an article I will be releasing tomorrow on FSA and processing anger / 'righteous rage'.
Going no contact with every one of my family members is the best thing I've done in recovering myself from the undeniable state of affairs I found myself in last year when all hell broke loose in my family, and my sister mobbed me with multiple others, to "put me in my place". I look at my large extended family and how they've unified to shun me out of the family, and shake my head. You can't start to find recovery unless you start by recognizing when you're at risk of getting pulled into crazymaking. The only way I could eliminate family crazymaking drama was by going no contact. And I don't regret it for a second because it allowed me to begin detaching and regaining my sovereignty and dignity.
Your last sentence says it all. You cannot put a price on personal sovereignty and one's human dignity. (And avoiding 'crazymaking land' is always a good idea as well!)
Rebecca, I was unable to read the article but have been reading comments here. From you , I have found a place that validates my experience and had was finally given a description of what it was I was going through. Living life as the Scapegoat has many layers of emotional and physiological abuse within the scapegoat appointed role. I have heard this quote” you cannot heal in the environment that harmed you , or made you sick”. There’s nothing I wanted or needed more than the love and people in my family. But time and again proved they didn’t want me. To be emotionally abandoned, alienated , ostracized , smeared , withholding affection and removing my place in the family because of false narratives . In the beginnng is the confusion it causes . not understanding what’s happening because no one will tell you . The alliances they create are solid. No one believes you , and you’re beside yourself in your isolation and loneliness
You start to question yourself and those doubts begin to erode your identity. Even during this stage in your pain your hopeful one of them will accept you again but they don’t . You’re alone without a family and made to feel everything is your fault . You feel despised , unwanted and invisible and that you don’t matter. You start closing the door because the pain is intense and excruciating. That door helps you survive , by not letting more injustices enter. The door closes in hope for peace and calm so you may settle into healing , are less fragile and to find support .Its a road you never wanted to be on , could never imagine, but one they took you down. I am still in my healing ,yet I hurt every day. I tried giving from this place many times but I cannot be seen by them as a holder of any goodness . So I’ve had to keep the door closed for my protection of my heart and my mind. I can only look at today yet I know, their doors only opens for each other.
Hi JB, this is a stunningly accurate and precise description of what so many FSA adult survivors experience in their family-of-origin that I hoped to capture in my book (Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed), articles and videos following my research on what I eventually named family scapegoating abuse. Not a word is wasted here and to be honest, I could have written it myself. Meaning, I understand all you convey here not just on a professional level, but on a personal, visceral level as well. I'm very glad to have you here in our community, and hope to hear from you again. Thank you for this comment.
Rebecca , I extend more than thanks. You and your research have provided a sanctuary of knowledge snd understanding to all you reach. I think when one is understood and validated they can take pause , share their voice and heart that hasn’t been heard in so long . It gives ground for strength and healing and a shared a community within it. I continue to learn and grow , understand and heal , from all the information , resources and care you give to us all. Some would call it a lifeline.
Good to hear. That was my hope when I decided to get my FSA research-based work (and client / personal experience of it) out there. I am wondering, could I share your comment above with our community of subscribers? I can use 'JB' as author or keep you anonymous, and no problem if you prefer that I do not!
Hi JB, I’ve taken a pic of your comment and will store it on my phone because it’s such a good description. I will read it over at times when I need to.
I read The NY Times article. I think it’s a bit skewed in that it would be easy for a reader unfamiliar with PT’s VDO’s to think that “going know contact” was a culture phenomenon aggressively promoted by him whereas it’s just a small part of his VDO’s. The bulk of his work is dialoguing with the inner child which seems to me to me a simplistic version of parts therapy or IFS. He keeps things only to the frontal ‘inner-child lobe’ or the ‘adult cortex’. I viewed his VDO’s earlier on as they always showed up in my feed but scapegoating and multiple parts are a better fit for me (although if you try explaining multiple parts to anyone they’ll think that you’re schizophrenic so his way is easier to explain to friends if you need to).
I agree with what you say here. As a complex trauma treatment professional trained / certified by Dr. Janina Fisher, I also prefer 'parts' work for the reasons you say, and you explain it very well. In 'the old days' before IFS I had been trained in Psychosynthesis by John Firman and Ann Gila (authors of 'The Primal Wound') and we called these aspects of self 'sub-personalities', so for me it was just a matter of saying 'parts' versus 'sub-personalities' (and as you say, less explaining to do when using the term 'parts' - you can only imagine the concerned looks I would get from my clients before explaining what 'sub-personalities' meant!)
Hi Rebecca, thanks for sharing this article and opening it up for discussion.
This question has weighed heavily on me since my MN mother passed away 3 weeks ago. Why did I not go no contact with my FSA family years ago?
With the research I've done, Im assuming that I fit the preverbal trauma, toxic shame and complex attachment profile as scapegoating started when I was born a "difficult baby"
With this conditioning, knowing on every level that I was just a bad defective unstable person and no frame of reference for what it may feel to be loved or have any healthy connection with others, I felt it would be safer to stay in my abusive family in a dysfunctional caring role, making sure my parents appeared perfect to outsiders, rather than the risk of being ostracized by the world.
It's taken a heavy toll but I honestly didn't have the self worth to imagine that I could make it on my own
The answer is complex and personal and I feel, very much related to our individual survival responses and the age at which the abuse started
Hi Sheen, such an insightful comment, and yes, you are absolutely correct. We must consider early childhood conditioning and also the fact that the brain is about 80% developed by the time the child is 4 to 6 years old. Meaning, nearly all of the neural pathways connections are wired around this conditioning. This is why it is so important that all therapists become trauma-informed, including in regard to Complex Trauma (versus PTSD) when they treat child victims and adult survivors of family abuse, including FSA.
I am 69 and both an estranged mother from 2 of my 3 children and also a scapegoated daughter that went no contact with my entire family 2 years ago after 67 years of being my mother's scapegoat. All in all, I have found it a very complicated and complex situation to be in, I am both the estranger and the estranged. So I will try and explain it as concisely as I can in this format. My Covert Narcissistic mother left me with no choice but to estrange myself from my own birth family after 67 years of scapegoating me to the point that no one in my family saw me in any other lense but the lense that my mentally ill mother had painted for them behind my back for 67 years. Meaning they had heard 67 years of lies while unknowingly being triangulated against me for 67 years, even to the point of as an infant I bore the brunt of my mother's failure to nurture and mother me. She put all the blame on me, gave me to her mother to raise, and forgot about me until I was 10, while at the same time telling everyone in the family that I was a troubled, problem child so as not to be blamed for giving me away when I was but a month or 2 old. All of my life in her mind, she was the victim of an ungrateful and unloving child...me! There were only 3 people in my family that she did not turn against me before the age of one, and these 3 were my caretakers who adored me...my Mimi, my great grandmother and my 16 year old aunt. Everyone else in the family, as well as close friends and neighbors always treated me like the red headed step child...no matter how hard I tried to be a good girl. I never understood why no one liked me but my beloved Mimi?? When my brother was born when I was 5, he was the kept, wanted, golden child. I was still living with my Mimi and did so until he was 5 and I was 10. Then my mom brought me back to live with her, my alcoholic father and my brother as the family caretaker while they all shunned, neglected and physically abused me. I thought I had escaped the abuse when I married at 18 and when my first son was born, when suddenly my mother treated me like I was the golden child, so I forgave her and started over with her and my dad and brother...little did I know then that I had given her a new source of narcissistic supply, called "grandma." I thought she had suddenly decided she liked me! Naturally she was not done covertly scapegoating me for the next 47 years, as she managed to alienate 2 of my 3 sons behind my back that decided to become estranged from me in 2008, as they finally believed her that I am crazy, mentally ill, a liar and the family problem child, while at the same time she scapegoated my middle son with the help of his older brother to everyone in the family to the point he that he ran away at age 17 to escape the secret abuse of his older 21 year old brother. Our middle son never told us then in 1997 when he ran away that his older brother was abusing him, he did not think we would believe him, because older brother was so good at being covert. He was right as at that time, as I also did not see that my oldest child was a covert Narcissist just like his grandmother until years later after he estranged from me in 2008. My mother continued to triangulate me with every member of the family and eventually scapegoated me to the point I was shunned by my brother and his wife and kids for the past 30 years, then kept from my Mimi's and my father's funerals by my mother. I finally was blessed to discover Dr. Mandeville and after reading her book on FSA, I woke up to the truth about my mother and oldest son's NPD and went no contact 2 years ago with my mother when she was 90. She just passed away this year and I recently found out that after my dad died in 2017 she cut me out of her will completely, giving it all to my brother. This was after my husband and I had put our lives on hold in 2013, and moved into my parents home to help my mother care for my dying father until 2016 when at that time she threw us out of her house and told the entire family that we had been trying to steal her house and put her and dad in a nursing home. Of course this was not true, but she had just been diagnosed with dementia and I had made the mistake of telling my brother when she refused to do it herself. This put her into a rage with me again and she called a family meeting and made up this fairy tail as her reason for kicking us out and would then use this after my dad died to convince my brother, his wife and all his kids that I was a threat to her and convince them that giving them the house in their name was protecting her from me. To date, no one has the slightest idea of how she used them to hurt me, much less do they know who I really am. Narcissistic rage is a terribly dangerous thing and in itself a compelling reason to go no contact in my opinion! Again, I really don't see that she ever gave me another choice but to estrange from her, especially after I came to see all the countless times I had unknowingly triggered that rage against myself and how she not only destroyed my relationships with all of my birth family, but that she destroyed my relaltionships with my sons and 5 grandkids in 67 years! I think the old adage of "walk a mile in my shoes" applies very well here in regard to the article you asked us to read and give an opinion on. Most people including alot of professionals just don't have a clue! I 100% agree with Dr. Mandeville that there can be no hope of healing as long as you are still being abused and traumatized! My mother convinced my sister-in-law to shun me back in 1990. That made me close to being suicidal and put me into therapy. Then I was told by my mother to get out of therapy or leave the family, so I left the family, and got enough help over the next 3 years to learn to set healthy boundaries and continued to heal after making the decision to move a 100 miles away 3 years later in 1993. From that time in 1993 until 2 years ago, I had limited contact enough over the years to unknowingly keep myself out of my mother's sphere of control and have a better life at least until I lost 2 of my sons and 5 of my 8 grandkids to estrangement. When my oldest son got married, he continued his relationship with my parents and his uncle and they continued to brainwash and triangulate him behind my back. He then convinced his youngest brother to join him when he estranged from us in 2008. However, my ignorance of my mother's covert Narcisissm put me back in harm's way with my mother in 2013 when as I mentioned, we moved into her home to help her care for my abusive alcoholic dying father. Thankfully I had healed enough that I was not traumatized back into needing therapy when she accused me of trying to steal her house and put her and dad into the nursing home. My husband and I packed up and resumed our lives newly retired and traveling in an Rv after that. I now live 2 states away, have no plans to ever return to my home state for any reason and with my mother's death this past spring, as long as I stay "dark" here in my new state of residence, my family has no way to know what I am doing or to continue to scapegoat me and the abuse stops. The happy ending is that my middle son and I have reconnected and have reconciled and are rebuilding a healthy relationship with each other. I praise God that as a child I chose to not respond to the trauma in my childhood by becoming as evil to my family and others as my mother was to me due to her own childhood trauma! We all have a choice in life which kind of person we are going to be. Knowing what I now know, I still would chose the path I took in response to how I was treated and have no regrets there! I had hoped to keep this shorter, but as I said, my situation is complicated and there's really 2 situations of estrangement/no contact described here...mine to my mother and 2 of my sons estranged from me. Thanks to tall who take the time to read this...hope it helps someone else in their journey to healing!
Hi Patricia, there are many parts of your story I personally relate with and my heart felt very heavy (with recognition of the pain of this type of scapegoating) while reading through these terrible (and terribly unjust) situations you've endured. In my experience, there is an appalling lack of research on children who have been turned against their (scapegoated) parents by their (scapegoating) grandparents and I do plan to do some informal (survey-style, qualitative) research on this one day, hopefully this year or early next. I appreciate your taking the time to leave a comment that should make it obvious why ending contact with family members is at times not just a 'choice' but a genuine necessity if one is to heal and recover from abuse - including family scapegoating abuse (FSA). Glad you're here.
Thank you for beginning research on scapegoating (grand)parents purposely interrupting relationships between their chosen scapegoat and their children. I witnessed this occur in my family with two of my siblings and our scapegoating parent abuser. One (of many) reasons I finally pulled the trigger on no contact with that abuser was because I had witnessed them take children from one sibling through legal abuse and covertly conspiring with the other parent (the abuser parent aligned with the divorcing ex against their own child, my sibling), and then take children from a second sibling through manipulation and turning them against their parent. One of the reasons I'm so staunch in my refusal to allow access of any kind is to prevent that abuser parent repeating this behavior in my family with my children. They were trying to start the same cycle with my family by covertly infiltrating my relationships with my former in laws and smearing me to get them to help take my children from me just like what was done to my two siblings.
This is a specific tool that is used strategically by certain abusive parents. There really needs to be research on it so we stop being called crazy, paranoid, and imagining things. Data helps shut that down.
Another spot-on comment, Brooke. I hope my initial research that I plan to do on this tragic aspect of FSA will inspire future doctoral students to do a formal peer-reviewed research study on it, just as my past FSA research has done globally to date (I'll be sharing an update soon on the FSA research taking place in Zambia right now, which I is in part based on my original FSA research and which uses one of my FSA questionnaires).
Thank you Dr. Mandeville, for your kind words of support and encouragement! I would be most interested in any research you wish to share on this subject. I also am looking for answers as to what I did wrong as a parent, or was it genetic or a combination of both that I ended up with a covert narcissistic son. He was not traumatized in anyway that I am aware of during his childhood. He was however, loved, idolized and spoiled rotten by all of us, me especially, for the first 4 years of his life being the only child. The birth of his younger brother was very hard on him because his brother was sick during his first year and required all of my time and attention. And he was being secretly groomed and triangulated against me by my covert narcisisstic mother, early on and all of his childhood. I am glad to be here too, and most of all very thankful for all your hard work to help us FSA survivors!
One cannot underestimate the damage of what you mention here: "And he was being secretly groomed and triangulated against me by my covert narcisisstic mother, early on and all of his childhood". No child should be turned against their parent. And by the grandparent, no less. This is why any one who has been scapegoated by a parent would be wise to carefully and closely supervise visits with the grandparent who scapegoated them. But most FSA survivors do not realize this until it is too late, sadly.
I am so, so sorry for the excruciating pain you've been put through for so long. I read every word, and I am sorry. You didn't deserve any of it. The entire premise of the scapegoating is plainly obvious to me from the instant an adult called a baby "difficult," and I don't understand how any other reasonable person didn't see the truth immediately from that, by itself. It seems like my own abuser parent never really wanted to be a parent, but simply wanted children as accessories, as objects to be used in the many ways we were used. A child having normal child needs seems to provoke some kind of intense rage and rejection in them. That should be a sign to anyone paying attention, but too often, it's not and the children (while minors or even as adults) having normal human emotional needs continue to be blamed for the parent's inability to tolerate any requirement for them to provide care or emotional support to the children they chose to have.
As someone who was labeled "such a difficult baby" (I was born unable to digest any food other than goat's milk and white rice and was considered for a time a terminal case) and heard this description of myself for decades as part of the 'scapegoat narrative' that was shared about me to anyone who would listen, including complete strangers, I appreciate the veracity of this comment, Brooke. Well said, and thank you.
You're welcome and I'm sorry that was part of your abuse. My oldest child had similar difficulties when they were born and had to eat prescription formula with rice for months. The medical issues were challenging, but my baby was a delight. I notice when someone can't distinguish between the two, and it's a danger signal.
Hi Rebecca- You are generous to uplift Ellen's piece. I found it pretty problematic actually, as I find a lot of her work. I am also a trauma therapist in practice for 40 years. I feel like she writes from a place of bias, often established before she starts doing her research it seems.
This is such an important conversation and she missed the entire point. People do not cut off their family because their therapists tell them to or because their family wouldn't buy them a car or a fancy apartment. I have worked with many clients who come to the conclusion that they need space when visits lead to suicide attempts, bouts of dangerous self harm, relapses with drugs and alcohol, and despair so dark they can hardly function. Yes, this is one end of the continuum but the experience of spending time with people who gaslight you, reject your reality, belittle your emotional experience and requests for help is devastating for anyone. It is nearly impossible to build a good life when your home base is a place of invalidation, degradation, and annihilation.
Ellen missed all of that. Her hot take on mental health issues is often the sensational and seems more about getting clicks than about presenting the real human experience. Her piece about Judith Herman's book, "Truth and Recovery" last year (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/24/health/judith-herman-trauma.html) focused instead on Judith's knee injury that required her to be on maintenance fentanyl. It was a damning inaccurate essay that tossed away an opportunity to honor one of the greatest trauma researchers, clinicians, and scholars of our time.
I am certain that you painted a very important picture of the issues for Ellen. That she did not include your perspective after taking your time and instead wrote this watered down version of "there's blame on both sides" is Ellen.
In my work, I do not introduce estrangement. Clients have been thinking about it often before we ever talk about it. I may float the option after a suicide attempt or intense suicidal thoughts after a visit with parents but never has it been my idea.
Ellen missed the dire emotional experience someone is in when they make this choice. In highlighting the Chinese student at the beginning of her piece, she framed the conversation as a breezy conversation about young people haphazardly and impulsively cutting off their parents like they might choose a new pair of shoes. This has never been my experience. You might consider writing a rebuttal for the letters to the editors section of the NYT if you feel the same way.
Her piece was silencing the real pain behind these decisions which is only confirmed by the mystification on the part of the parents.
Hi Joy, lovely to meet you here (and I just 'followed' you).
I appreciate (and agree with) your comment in its entirety. Based on Ellen's original email to me and some of her questions regarding certain therapists known for their views on family reunification vs ending contact, I let her know I was not comfortable discussing my colleagues views on this, but I was happy to discuss trauma-informed views on family abuse and contact issues. Meaning, my sense (based on her original questions) was that the piece would be 'controversy'-focused, because this is generally the case in the competitive world of journalism these days, but I was still hoping (as a clinician specializing in family psycho-emotional abuse and a certified complex trauma treatment professional) to offer her 'food for thought' to round out her article.
I tested the waters initially by sending her one of my trauma-informed videos on working with survivors of what I named 'family scapegoating abuse' (FSA) (a term I coined during the course of my original family systems-based research on this phenomenon years ago) and shared why an FSA adult survivor might choose to limit or end contact to support their healing and recovery efforts.
I also specifically addressed complex trauma and structural dissociation as related to systemic psycho-emotional abuse, and how this might dictate a client's decisions regarding their level of contact with individual family members or their entire family system while working in therapy (and after) - and there was no apparent interest on her end to follow up with me on this.
I am so not surprised about your experience. As a survivor myself, I have had to negotiate the rejection I felt when I needed to take a break from my mother, in particular. It was a devastating choice that I needed to make to preserve myself. The kind of coverage that Ellen offered does not forward the conversation and engender compassion and tenderness toward the family member that is suffering. Not ok. I so appreciate your work and I am grateful to be in conversation!!
I feel the same, and I look forward to digging into your Substack posts - I see many pieces already I look forward to reading over my morning coffee soon!
All these comments make me heartsick. I am 73 years old and just since January 2024 realized I was the scapegoat in my family because of my cruel mother. I knew and know I never wanted to be like her but now I have been having to face doing the same to my daughters...one a golden child parentified and one a scapegoat. Needless to say I am estranged from the scapegoat and it was me who cut off contact because I couldn't see what I had done to her and she had been taken from me by my mother...not physically but emotionally. I was ignorant of psychology and what was happening because of allowing her to treat me badly all my life trying to figure out what was wrong with me. I know I am a classic case and these past 6 months I have had such intense shame because I thought I loved my daughters so much and gave my life to them but was actually taking away their lives. It is so hard to face. I was in my 60's before I was able to even become no contact with my mother and when she died 4 years ago I felt such relief. But now not only am I trying to heal my own emotions but trying to accept my losses in relationships with my daughters. As I am healing, I am writing to my daughters apologizing and accepting responsibility. I have not shared these letters yet because I know I am still in a bad place for being confronted by them. I really do love them so much and wanted to be and thought I was a good mom. I didn't know I was emotionally crippled and never would have hurt them intentionally. There is 73 years of too much to say, but I deeply understand and relate as a daughter, a mother, and a grandmother. I am so fortunate to be blessed with relationships with my grandchildren and it is because I didn't try to steal their hearts from their mom. One thing I have achieved. Thank you for listening.
Thank you for sharing such painful realities, Victoria. As a Family Systems therapist who has worked with literally hundreds of families, I can count on one hand the number of parents who were able and willing to face such painful truths and take responsibility for them at the deep level that you have. Family scapegoating is often generational (my mother was severely scapegoated by her grandmother, for example, and later scapegoated me) and it is ultimately a tragedy for the entire family - so many losses, too many to name. I hope you also are cultivating self-compassion as you process these realizations. If you have not yet read my book, 'Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed', it may serve to fill in missing puzzle pieces and aid in the awareness and healing process in regard to what I call 'Family Scapegoating Abuse' (FSA). Regardless, I appreciate your sharing in such a self-honest way and I'm glad you're here.
Rebecca, thank you for your kind words and encouragement. I have read some of your book, but have to take it slowly as it is difficult to process because I am reading it and looking at what I have done to my children and also trying to process what was done to me. I tried to approach my mother many times but she was unwilling to hear me. I definitely do not want to hurt my own children more than I already have so I am seeking to heal so that they want to have relationship with me, hopefully. My mother was married 5 times and my brother and I were dragged through her life and that is all we knew. I first started realizing my situation after I had my first baby. Unfortunately not enough to realize that she would alienate my child from me and I would help her by not recognizing my own issues. My mother parentified, me also, and I did the same to my second daughter and sadly just realized this in the past year. I don't know why it took so long but I truly was not aware. She had made statements to me for years but mostly I couldn't understand why she said the things she did. I feel deeply ashamed and embarrassed about both of my children. I would never have intentionally hurt them! I thought I did everything for them and it has been the greatest disappointment in my self I have ever experienced. My father left when I was 4 years old and married 5 or 6 times as well and came to visit only occasionally throughout my life. I then married someone just like my mother (of course), but again had no idea. I wonder why I was so blind to psychology of human nature although I know not as much information was available or at least, I didn't know about it. I have been divorced for over 30 years and never remarried. I feel I have spent most of my life just trying to survive and be the best person I can be. I have experienced such deep loneliness at my core no matter how many people are in the room...so to speak. Also, it has just been in the past year that I began to recognize myself as I started watching youtube videos about estrangement and reading the comments of the parents, all justifying the parents with a few young people angrily sharing the opposite view. I felt in my spirit that the young people were probably more right than those trying to defend their position of being loving an perfect parents...lol. It was eye opening for me. I have always preferred the truth no matter how painful and boy, has this been painful. Thank you, again, for responding to each one of us who have shared on this site. That is unusual and very kind of you. I am sorry for your experiences, as well. I have tried finding a counselor who understands these dynamics so if you have any knowledge of counselors in or around Eugene, Oregon, I would appreciate knowing of them.
Overall, this article seems pretty well-balanced, but it does seem slanted a little in the direction of the parents being cut off. It doesn’t go into detail at all about all the years that abused children try to tell their parents how much they’re harming them. It sounds very empathetic toward the parents being cut off, yet these
parents if you hear them through this article, they are still blaming their child, instead of taking any responsibility. However, there was one parent in the article who sounded a whole lot more healthy (owning what they did wrong) than my parents or siblings would ever sound. The one therapist trying to help parents, telling them it’s like a break up where someone’s giving you one last chance, telling them to be humble and not defend themselves, was wise. I’m glad the subject is being talked about. Hopefully, this will start a dialogue and other articles will come out that are more clear about why children feel the need to go to this extreme. I don’t think it helps the cut off cause much When people cut off their parents too quickly or easily. Thank you so much for your work in this field Rebecca, it’s helped
me so much!!❤️🩹❤️💔
You're very welcome, Constance. Given my email exchange with Ellen while she was writing this piece, I do wish she had emphasized my point about the reality of complex trauma for many family abuse survivors and the need to create a healing space whereby one's nervous system is not constantly being activated - which is why trauma-treatment professionals like myself recommend stepping back from contact when initiating complex trauma treatment for family abuse survivors. (I also confirm the client suffers from Complex Trauma via the International Trauma Questionnaire (ITQ) distributed by the WHO so it is not just my 'opinion' I am going on here!)
I love to hear you talk about this. So, please go on as much or as little as you’d like to!!😁 Your approach is so good because it is focused on healing the adult child, while not bashing the parent they are estranged from. It feels so good to find people like you standing up for us. Thought I never would.💔❤️🩹
There is a time and place for bashing and venting early on in one's recovery, but we need to be mindful not to get stuck there...(!) I'll be discussing FSA recovery and processing anger in my article tomorrow, btw.
The NYT makes money by writing stories with a slant that generates clicks. How many white people in diners will they ask about Trump? Will they ever find Black people (the base of the Dem party) to ask about Biden? Never. Many people benefit from identifying toxicity in their families of origin and doing something about it. The NYT slant for clicks "is it wrong for people to take care of themselves? Parents say they've been insulted." Wow have the parents been waiting to click to find how wronged they've been! Thanks NYT, journalism in the capitalist age.
Controversy sells. Let's just say there were reasons I had concerns about going on the record for this article.
Thanks Rebecca. I'm unable to read the article without subscribing, and although the fee is pretty low, I don't want to add to my already long list of subscriptions. So my ideas aren't related to the article. It is difficult for people who have not experienced the trauma of scapegoating to understand a person's need to separate from the system that causes them harm. The night I made my decision so many years ago I was in bed unable to sleep, feeling as if an elephant were stomping on my chest. The small wiser part of me said that if I did not do something I would break. I would really and truly be damaged beyond repair. I decided to save myself that night. Although it has been painful to be alienated from my birth family, it has also allowed my nervous system to settle. I'd had panic attacks and anxiety. Both went down immediately upon deciding to go low-contact (which has now become no-contact). I firmly believe that without this needed space I would never discover who I am and I would lead a life dictated by the hurt and trauma passed down by my parents and their parents before them.
There's no blame in the statement that my abdomen and diaphragm clench in a painful manner the closer in physical proximity I am to my mother. This is a fact. I agree that low/no contact calms my nervous system.
Anna, my heart goes out to you. Our body knows what is safe. Wishing you well.
Thx Debbie for your sharing.The sentence starting with..”I firmly believe that without this needed space” really resonated with me” bc it’s a complex situation. Thx💗
Yes, Sally, it is complex. I've thought about it all day. I can't speak for everyone's experience, but it seems to me that a person would not choose to separate from their family unless it was absolutely necessary for their survival. We would not judge a wife who was being assaulted by her partner for walking away to safety and getting a restraining order if need be. I find it curious that society is not nearly so ready to show compassion for people who have endured scapegoating abuse. It may be a matter of public education. Thank goodness for people like Rebecca who are spreading the word.
Exactly….Public Education is really needed and Rebecca who published a book about scapegoating is truly a pioneer regarding this topic. Total identification…
Appreciate this, Sally, thank you.
Gosh darn it, on my end I did not have to make an account, and when I do see the invitation now to make one, it says I can do it for free and not pay anything. My apologies for the confusion, and I do appreciate your still taking the time to comment and share your views. Your comment here mirrors precisely what I shared in my email exchange with the author of this piece, Ellen Barry, when she was working on this article. Specifically, that for FSA adult survivors, it is typically not possible to create a healing space when one is still being triggered / having their nervous system chronically activated via abusive systemic dynamics. I also stressed that we, as clinicians, indeed are ethically obligated to alert clients to this reality, and, if a client is in a genuine crisis, we are also ethically mandated by our licensing boards to become more directive, versus just letting them "figure it out" on their own.
The article is behind a paywall ugh!
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/14/health/therapy-family-estrangement.html#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20scientific%20evidence,siblings%2C%20grandchildren%20and%20aging%20parents.
It still is behind a paywall with that link
On my end I could read it. It says you can make a free account as well so not sure what's up. I do apologize for any frustration caused by this unexpected development.
PLEASE NOTE: To read this article, you may need to make an account with the New York Times - there are a certain number of articles you can read there free every month. I was able to read this article for free without making an account so it could be you will have the same luck(!)
The article is behind a paywall.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/14/health/therapy-family-estrangement.html#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20scientific%20evidence,siblings%2C%20grandchildren%20and%20aging%20parents.
PLEASE NOTE: To read this article, you may need to make an account with the New York Times - there are a certain number of articles you can read there free every month. I was able to read this article for free without making an account so it could be you will have the same luck(!)
Oh bummer I’m sorry.
The article raised my hackles a bit, particularly the part about there being no scientific evidence that children cutting off their families is beneficial. This feels like minimization of the abuse. No one gets their panties in a twist when a Domestic Violence victim goes no contact with their abuser. The wheel of power and control applies to parents and their adult children too. Oh, and the idea that therapists are “encouraging estrangement” was also baffling. I don’t know a single mental health clinician who went to school and came away thinking that estrangement was a “goal” in family relationships. Here is my response in full: https://daughterinlawhell.substack.com/p/why-going-no-contact-is-so-controversial
Thanks for sharing your article regarding your response to Ellen's piece, Violet. I'll be including it in this week's Sunday Digest as well. As I have said many a-time, for many, many years: We no longer (as a society) tell victims of Domestic Violence to "work it out with their spouse - you don't want to break up your marriage, divorce is so bad for children." Yet, we tell family abuse survivors to work it out with their family as family is so "important". Another important note: We licensed clinicians ARE indeed expected to become more directive when a client is in a crisis. This is even in our licensing exams. If a client is being continuously re-traumatized due to abusive family dynamics, we have an ethical obligation to educate the client regarding abuse and how such dynamics (and attendant abuse) effects one's nervous system and can result in PTSD or Complex Trauma symptoms. And we must invite them to consider stepping back from family interactions temporarily - or long-term - depending on each client's unique situation.
So helpful, thank you!
I had never thought of it in those terms - of redirecting a client who is in crisis. Indeed, we have an obligation in those cases to educate and support.
Thank you, Violet Gray. What a deeply considered and helpful article.
Of course. I’m so glad you found it helpful!
I would have so benefited from my then therapist recognizing that I was getting retriggered with every visit home and making no progress. In the end, I surfaced it, and they retired, so it was a good transition. Just... at least 10 years passed with this routine playing out over and over. It feels like suffering could have been avoided.
True for so many FSA survivors - as well as those suffering from Complex Trauma. Hopefully, as more attention is brought to this matter publicly, Mental Health professionals will have more awareness regarding the reality of abusive family dynamics that are often systemic in nature.
Thank you!! I did not want to read it without hearing a synopsis first, as I have no interest in yet another soft on abusers piece that makes excuses and does not fully explore the valid reasons some of us have no choice but to go no contact.
I also have *never* understood why there is such a strong disconnect, almost to the point of seeming to be intentional commitment to refusing to admit, that domestic violence is domestic violence, no matter who commits it! If a romantic partner had done a FRACTION of the things to me that my abusive parent did, NO ONE would blame me for going no contact with him. NO ONE would secretly give him information about me without asking first. NO ONE would pressure me to re-establish contact with him, and certainly NO ONE would pressure me to be responsible in any way for his care. Ever.
Exactly my point in my reply to Violet above. Imagine if I, as a licensed clinician, told Domestic Abuse victims where the abuse is committed by a partner, "I can't tell you what to do in regard to whether or not you should remain in contact (or live with) your partner..you need to just figure that out as we go along here in therapy." This would be antithetical to my licensing mandate that dictates that I must offer clear direction to clients in a crisis. And chronic family abuse IS a crisis and can lead to severe psycho-emotional and physical symptoms - or worse.
Probably a blessing for me that the article is not accessible.
I was able to read it for free for some reason and I don't have an account. If you do make an account, you are able to read a few articles for free every month but I understand if you don't want to do that.
Any therapist that doesn’t agree can definitely take my place in their lives I’m good with that. I’m doing well and have been for 20years!!
not possible to access without subscription
I was able to read it for free for some reason and I don't have an account. If you do make an account, you are able to read a few articles for free every month but I understand if you don't want to do that.
I am so tired of people citing Joshua Coleman. He deliberately panders to the estranged parent deflection narratives. His own research on the attributions of estranged mothers shows that they endorse external attributions and refuse to validate their children's experiences or concerns.
The comment from Brian Briscoe of his "rejection" by his adult children as "the most painful experience of his adult life," is very indicative of toxic parents centering themselves and their experience over that of their adult child whose experience with THEM was so painful as to necessitate removing themselves from the relationship.
While the article does cover the reasons given by EAC, it does so in a slanting way insinuating that it is the wrong way. It is more of the same type of fodder toting the cultural expectations of children tolerating harmful behavior and the judgement that there are no true valid reasons for estrangement.
The fact that the article concluded with the quotes from Teahan is a positive as is the inclusion of the quote that it is not the job of children to maintain the relationship with their parents.
Well said. And I concur. Thanks for taking the time to leave such a succinct and insightful comment.
I find it interesting that people cut off their family for so much less than the violent, insane childhood I experienced. And good for them. As the person who was hated and mobbed, "all alone on the battlefield with all the guns pointed at me" all of my life, I found that after I went completely NO CONTACT, every aspect of my life, holidays, vacations and friendships are lovely. I would never let any of them back in. I started living the day I cut them off. I agree NO CONTACT should be an therapeutic option, it is very often the only way to freedom and healing.
Particularly for those who suffer from PTSD and/or Complex Trauma symptoms due to a lifetime of abusive dynamics. (And I recognize a line from my video there - wish I could remember which one it was!)
Yes, this. Like someone mentioned above, there is no opinion in my bodily responses to those people. That is a nervous system response, and their behavior led to that in me. Shortly before my first no contact with the main abuser, it was relayed to me through a third party that they were even aware of this. The abuser had told this person that I just seemed nervous and uncomfortable around them.
I know I commented on that line as it really resonated with me. I'd never heard it put quite that way and it was such a strong truth.
PLEASE NOTE: To read this article, you may need to make an account with the New York Times - there are a certain number of articles you can read there free every month. I was able to read this article for free without making an account and therefore didn't realize it asks for you to subscribe so it could be you will have the same luck (!)
I cut off the remainder just recently as one of them was expecting me to report to them and they never asked me anything nicely, always in a degrading way. I have felt enormous relief in that anytime I start to think about them, I tell myself that they’re cut off and I no longer need to think about them or worry anything (even though they’re many mikes away). I have no regrets about it and my heart literally beats at a slower pace for longer.
The body indeed does 'keep the score'. Something I mention in relation to an article I will be releasing tomorrow on FSA and processing anger / 'righteous rage'.
Going no contact with every one of my family members is the best thing I've done in recovering myself from the undeniable state of affairs I found myself in last year when all hell broke loose in my family, and my sister mobbed me with multiple others, to "put me in my place". I look at my large extended family and how they've unified to shun me out of the family, and shake my head. You can't start to find recovery unless you start by recognizing when you're at risk of getting pulled into crazymaking. The only way I could eliminate family crazymaking drama was by going no contact. And I don't regret it for a second because it allowed me to begin detaching and regaining my sovereignty and dignity.
Your last sentence says it all. You cannot put a price on personal sovereignty and one's human dignity. (And avoiding 'crazymaking land' is always a good idea as well!)
Rebecca, I was unable to read the article but have been reading comments here. From you , I have found a place that validates my experience and had was finally given a description of what it was I was going through. Living life as the Scapegoat has many layers of emotional and physiological abuse within the scapegoat appointed role. I have heard this quote” you cannot heal in the environment that harmed you , or made you sick”. There’s nothing I wanted or needed more than the love and people in my family. But time and again proved they didn’t want me. To be emotionally abandoned, alienated , ostracized , smeared , withholding affection and removing my place in the family because of false narratives . In the beginnng is the confusion it causes . not understanding what’s happening because no one will tell you . The alliances they create are solid. No one believes you , and you’re beside yourself in your isolation and loneliness
You start to question yourself and those doubts begin to erode your identity. Even during this stage in your pain your hopeful one of them will accept you again but they don’t . You’re alone without a family and made to feel everything is your fault . You feel despised , unwanted and invisible and that you don’t matter. You start closing the door because the pain is intense and excruciating. That door helps you survive , by not letting more injustices enter. The door closes in hope for peace and calm so you may settle into healing , are less fragile and to find support .Its a road you never wanted to be on , could never imagine, but one they took you down. I am still in my healing ,yet I hurt every day. I tried giving from this place many times but I cannot be seen by them as a holder of any goodness . So I’ve had to keep the door closed for my protection of my heart and my mind. I can only look at today yet I know, their doors only opens for each other.
Hi JB, this is a stunningly accurate and precise description of what so many FSA adult survivors experience in their family-of-origin that I hoped to capture in my book (Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed), articles and videos following my research on what I eventually named family scapegoating abuse. Not a word is wasted here and to be honest, I could have written it myself. Meaning, I understand all you convey here not just on a professional level, but on a personal, visceral level as well. I'm very glad to have you here in our community, and hope to hear from you again. Thank you for this comment.
Rebecca , I extend more than thanks. You and your research have provided a sanctuary of knowledge snd understanding to all you reach. I think when one is understood and validated they can take pause , share their voice and heart that hasn’t been heard in so long . It gives ground for strength and healing and a shared a community within it. I continue to learn and grow , understand and heal , from all the information , resources and care you give to us all. Some would call it a lifeline.
Good to hear. That was my hope when I decided to get my FSA research-based work (and client / personal experience of it) out there. I am wondering, could I share your comment above with our community of subscribers? I can use 'JB' as author or keep you anonymous, and no problem if you prefer that I do not!
Rebecca , yes please , you are welcome to share my comment with the community of subscribers. Jb.
Hi JB, I’ve taken a pic of your comment and will store it on my phone because it’s such a good description. I will read it over at times when I need to.
Thank you. You have written my experience.
I read The NY Times article. I think it’s a bit skewed in that it would be easy for a reader unfamiliar with PT’s VDO’s to think that “going know contact” was a culture phenomenon aggressively promoted by him whereas it’s just a small part of his VDO’s. The bulk of his work is dialoguing with the inner child which seems to me to me a simplistic version of parts therapy or IFS. He keeps things only to the frontal ‘inner-child lobe’ or the ‘adult cortex’. I viewed his VDO’s earlier on as they always showed up in my feed but scapegoating and multiple parts are a better fit for me (although if you try explaining multiple parts to anyone they’ll think that you’re schizophrenic so his way is easier to explain to friends if you need to).
I agree with what you say here. As a complex trauma treatment professional trained / certified by Dr. Janina Fisher, I also prefer 'parts' work for the reasons you say, and you explain it very well. In 'the old days' before IFS I had been trained in Psychosynthesis by John Firman and Ann Gila (authors of 'The Primal Wound') and we called these aspects of self 'sub-personalities', so for me it was just a matter of saying 'parts' versus 'sub-personalities' (and as you say, less explaining to do when using the term 'parts' - you can only imagine the concerned looks I would get from my clients before explaining what 'sub-personalities' meant!)
Hi Rebecca, thanks for sharing this article and opening it up for discussion.
This question has weighed heavily on me since my MN mother passed away 3 weeks ago. Why did I not go no contact with my FSA family years ago?
With the research I've done, Im assuming that I fit the preverbal trauma, toxic shame and complex attachment profile as scapegoating started when I was born a "difficult baby"
With this conditioning, knowing on every level that I was just a bad defective unstable person and no frame of reference for what it may feel to be loved or have any healthy connection with others, I felt it would be safer to stay in my abusive family in a dysfunctional caring role, making sure my parents appeared perfect to outsiders, rather than the risk of being ostracized by the world.
It's taken a heavy toll but I honestly didn't have the self worth to imagine that I could make it on my own
The answer is complex and personal and I feel, very much related to our individual survival responses and the age at which the abuse started
Hi Sheen, such an insightful comment, and yes, you are absolutely correct. We must consider early childhood conditioning and also the fact that the brain is about 80% developed by the time the child is 4 to 6 years old. Meaning, nearly all of the neural pathways connections are wired around this conditioning. This is why it is so important that all therapists become trauma-informed, including in regard to Complex Trauma (versus PTSD) when they treat child victims and adult survivors of family abuse, including FSA.
Without link please.
Rebecca you may use jb without the link or anonymous
Great, thanks!
I am 69 and both an estranged mother from 2 of my 3 children and also a scapegoated daughter that went no contact with my entire family 2 years ago after 67 years of being my mother's scapegoat. All in all, I have found it a very complicated and complex situation to be in, I am both the estranger and the estranged. So I will try and explain it as concisely as I can in this format. My Covert Narcissistic mother left me with no choice but to estrange myself from my own birth family after 67 years of scapegoating me to the point that no one in my family saw me in any other lense but the lense that my mentally ill mother had painted for them behind my back for 67 years. Meaning they had heard 67 years of lies while unknowingly being triangulated against me for 67 years, even to the point of as an infant I bore the brunt of my mother's failure to nurture and mother me. She put all the blame on me, gave me to her mother to raise, and forgot about me until I was 10, while at the same time telling everyone in the family that I was a troubled, problem child so as not to be blamed for giving me away when I was but a month or 2 old. All of my life in her mind, she was the victim of an ungrateful and unloving child...me! There were only 3 people in my family that she did not turn against me before the age of one, and these 3 were my caretakers who adored me...my Mimi, my great grandmother and my 16 year old aunt. Everyone else in the family, as well as close friends and neighbors always treated me like the red headed step child...no matter how hard I tried to be a good girl. I never understood why no one liked me but my beloved Mimi?? When my brother was born when I was 5, he was the kept, wanted, golden child. I was still living with my Mimi and did so until he was 5 and I was 10. Then my mom brought me back to live with her, my alcoholic father and my brother as the family caretaker while they all shunned, neglected and physically abused me. I thought I had escaped the abuse when I married at 18 and when my first son was born, when suddenly my mother treated me like I was the golden child, so I forgave her and started over with her and my dad and brother...little did I know then that I had given her a new source of narcissistic supply, called "grandma." I thought she had suddenly decided she liked me! Naturally she was not done covertly scapegoating me for the next 47 years, as she managed to alienate 2 of my 3 sons behind my back that decided to become estranged from me in 2008, as they finally believed her that I am crazy, mentally ill, a liar and the family problem child, while at the same time she scapegoated my middle son with the help of his older brother to everyone in the family to the point he that he ran away at age 17 to escape the secret abuse of his older 21 year old brother. Our middle son never told us then in 1997 when he ran away that his older brother was abusing him, he did not think we would believe him, because older brother was so good at being covert. He was right as at that time, as I also did not see that my oldest child was a covert Narcissist just like his grandmother until years later after he estranged from me in 2008. My mother continued to triangulate me with every member of the family and eventually scapegoated me to the point I was shunned by my brother and his wife and kids for the past 30 years, then kept from my Mimi's and my father's funerals by my mother. I finally was blessed to discover Dr. Mandeville and after reading her book on FSA, I woke up to the truth about my mother and oldest son's NPD and went no contact 2 years ago with my mother when she was 90. She just passed away this year and I recently found out that after my dad died in 2017 she cut me out of her will completely, giving it all to my brother. This was after my husband and I had put our lives on hold in 2013, and moved into my parents home to help my mother care for my dying father until 2016 when at that time she threw us out of her house and told the entire family that we had been trying to steal her house and put her and dad in a nursing home. Of course this was not true, but she had just been diagnosed with dementia and I had made the mistake of telling my brother when she refused to do it herself. This put her into a rage with me again and she called a family meeting and made up this fairy tail as her reason for kicking us out and would then use this after my dad died to convince my brother, his wife and all his kids that I was a threat to her and convince them that giving them the house in their name was protecting her from me. To date, no one has the slightest idea of how she used them to hurt me, much less do they know who I really am. Narcissistic rage is a terribly dangerous thing and in itself a compelling reason to go no contact in my opinion! Again, I really don't see that she ever gave me another choice but to estrange from her, especially after I came to see all the countless times I had unknowingly triggered that rage against myself and how she not only destroyed my relationships with all of my birth family, but that she destroyed my relaltionships with my sons and 5 grandkids in 67 years! I think the old adage of "walk a mile in my shoes" applies very well here in regard to the article you asked us to read and give an opinion on. Most people including alot of professionals just don't have a clue! I 100% agree with Dr. Mandeville that there can be no hope of healing as long as you are still being abused and traumatized! My mother convinced my sister-in-law to shun me back in 1990. That made me close to being suicidal and put me into therapy. Then I was told by my mother to get out of therapy or leave the family, so I left the family, and got enough help over the next 3 years to learn to set healthy boundaries and continued to heal after making the decision to move a 100 miles away 3 years later in 1993. From that time in 1993 until 2 years ago, I had limited contact enough over the years to unknowingly keep myself out of my mother's sphere of control and have a better life at least until I lost 2 of my sons and 5 of my 8 grandkids to estrangement. When my oldest son got married, he continued his relationship with my parents and his uncle and they continued to brainwash and triangulate him behind my back. He then convinced his youngest brother to join him when he estranged from us in 2008. However, my ignorance of my mother's covert Narcisissm put me back in harm's way with my mother in 2013 when as I mentioned, we moved into her home to help her care for my abusive alcoholic dying father. Thankfully I had healed enough that I was not traumatized back into needing therapy when she accused me of trying to steal her house and put her and dad into the nursing home. My husband and I packed up and resumed our lives newly retired and traveling in an Rv after that. I now live 2 states away, have no plans to ever return to my home state for any reason and with my mother's death this past spring, as long as I stay "dark" here in my new state of residence, my family has no way to know what I am doing or to continue to scapegoat me and the abuse stops. The happy ending is that my middle son and I have reconnected and have reconciled and are rebuilding a healthy relationship with each other. I praise God that as a child I chose to not respond to the trauma in my childhood by becoming as evil to my family and others as my mother was to me due to her own childhood trauma! We all have a choice in life which kind of person we are going to be. Knowing what I now know, I still would chose the path I took in response to how I was treated and have no regrets there! I had hoped to keep this shorter, but as I said, my situation is complicated and there's really 2 situations of estrangement/no contact described here...mine to my mother and 2 of my sons estranged from me. Thanks to tall who take the time to read this...hope it helps someone else in their journey to healing!
Hi Patricia, there are many parts of your story I personally relate with and my heart felt very heavy (with recognition of the pain of this type of scapegoating) while reading through these terrible (and terribly unjust) situations you've endured. In my experience, there is an appalling lack of research on children who have been turned against their (scapegoated) parents by their (scapegoating) grandparents and I do plan to do some informal (survey-style, qualitative) research on this one day, hopefully this year or early next. I appreciate your taking the time to leave a comment that should make it obvious why ending contact with family members is at times not just a 'choice' but a genuine necessity if one is to heal and recover from abuse - including family scapegoating abuse (FSA). Glad you're here.
Thank you for beginning research on scapegoating (grand)parents purposely interrupting relationships between their chosen scapegoat and their children. I witnessed this occur in my family with two of my siblings and our scapegoating parent abuser. One (of many) reasons I finally pulled the trigger on no contact with that abuser was because I had witnessed them take children from one sibling through legal abuse and covertly conspiring with the other parent (the abuser parent aligned with the divorcing ex against their own child, my sibling), and then take children from a second sibling through manipulation and turning them against their parent. One of the reasons I'm so staunch in my refusal to allow access of any kind is to prevent that abuser parent repeating this behavior in my family with my children. They were trying to start the same cycle with my family by covertly infiltrating my relationships with my former in laws and smearing me to get them to help take my children from me just like what was done to my two siblings.
This is a specific tool that is used strategically by certain abusive parents. There really needs to be research on it so we stop being called crazy, paranoid, and imagining things. Data helps shut that down.
Another spot-on comment, Brooke. I hope my initial research that I plan to do on this tragic aspect of FSA will inspire future doctoral students to do a formal peer-reviewed research study on it, just as my past FSA research has done globally to date (I'll be sharing an update soon on the FSA research taking place in Zambia right now, which I is in part based on my original FSA research and which uses one of my FSA questionnaires).
Thank you Dr. Mandeville, for your kind words of support and encouragement! I would be most interested in any research you wish to share on this subject. I also am looking for answers as to what I did wrong as a parent, or was it genetic or a combination of both that I ended up with a covert narcissistic son. He was not traumatized in anyway that I am aware of during his childhood. He was however, loved, idolized and spoiled rotten by all of us, me especially, for the first 4 years of his life being the only child. The birth of his younger brother was very hard on him because his brother was sick during his first year and required all of my time and attention. And he was being secretly groomed and triangulated against me by my covert narcisisstic mother, early on and all of his childhood. I am glad to be here too, and most of all very thankful for all your hard work to help us FSA survivors!
One cannot underestimate the damage of what you mention here: "And he was being secretly groomed and triangulated against me by my covert narcisisstic mother, early on and all of his childhood". No child should be turned against their parent. And by the grandparent, no less. This is why any one who has been scapegoated by a parent would be wise to carefully and closely supervise visits with the grandparent who scapegoated them. But most FSA survivors do not realize this until it is too late, sadly.
I am so, so sorry for the excruciating pain you've been put through for so long. I read every word, and I am sorry. You didn't deserve any of it. The entire premise of the scapegoating is plainly obvious to me from the instant an adult called a baby "difficult," and I don't understand how any other reasonable person didn't see the truth immediately from that, by itself. It seems like my own abuser parent never really wanted to be a parent, but simply wanted children as accessories, as objects to be used in the many ways we were used. A child having normal child needs seems to provoke some kind of intense rage and rejection in them. That should be a sign to anyone paying attention, but too often, it's not and the children (while minors or even as adults) having normal human emotional needs continue to be blamed for the parent's inability to tolerate any requirement for them to provide care or emotional support to the children they chose to have.
As someone who was labeled "such a difficult baby" (I was born unable to digest any food other than goat's milk and white rice and was considered for a time a terminal case) and heard this description of myself for decades as part of the 'scapegoat narrative' that was shared about me to anyone who would listen, including complete strangers, I appreciate the veracity of this comment, Brooke. Well said, and thank you.
You're welcome and I'm sorry that was part of your abuse. My oldest child had similar difficulties when they were born and had to eat prescription formula with rice for months. The medical issues were challenging, but my baby was a delight. I notice when someone can't distinguish between the two, and it's a danger signal.
💛 Sending Prayers & Hugs🙏🏽
You are a Champion 🏆
I can relate. Your words resonate and fill me will courage, admiration and determination to learn from your experience.
Thank you so very much for sharing💛
Blessings
Hi Rebecca- You are generous to uplift Ellen's piece. I found it pretty problematic actually, as I find a lot of her work. I am also a trauma therapist in practice for 40 years. I feel like she writes from a place of bias, often established before she starts doing her research it seems.
This is such an important conversation and she missed the entire point. People do not cut off their family because their therapists tell them to or because their family wouldn't buy them a car or a fancy apartment. I have worked with many clients who come to the conclusion that they need space when visits lead to suicide attempts, bouts of dangerous self harm, relapses with drugs and alcohol, and despair so dark they can hardly function. Yes, this is one end of the continuum but the experience of spending time with people who gaslight you, reject your reality, belittle your emotional experience and requests for help is devastating for anyone. It is nearly impossible to build a good life when your home base is a place of invalidation, degradation, and annihilation.
Ellen missed all of that. Her hot take on mental health issues is often the sensational and seems more about getting clicks than about presenting the real human experience. Her piece about Judith Herman's book, "Truth and Recovery" last year (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/24/health/judith-herman-trauma.html) focused instead on Judith's knee injury that required her to be on maintenance fentanyl. It was a damning inaccurate essay that tossed away an opportunity to honor one of the greatest trauma researchers, clinicians, and scholars of our time.
I am certain that you painted a very important picture of the issues for Ellen. That she did not include your perspective after taking your time and instead wrote this watered down version of "there's blame on both sides" is Ellen.
In my work, I do not introduce estrangement. Clients have been thinking about it often before we ever talk about it. I may float the option after a suicide attempt or intense suicidal thoughts after a visit with parents but never has it been my idea.
Ellen missed the dire emotional experience someone is in when they make this choice. In highlighting the Chinese student at the beginning of her piece, she framed the conversation as a breezy conversation about young people haphazardly and impulsively cutting off their parents like they might choose a new pair of shoes. This has never been my experience. You might consider writing a rebuttal for the letters to the editors section of the NYT if you feel the same way.
Her piece was silencing the real pain behind these decisions which is only confirmed by the mystification on the part of the parents.
Hi Joy, lovely to meet you here (and I just 'followed' you).
I appreciate (and agree with) your comment in its entirety. Based on Ellen's original email to me and some of her questions regarding certain therapists known for their views on family reunification vs ending contact, I let her know I was not comfortable discussing my colleagues views on this, but I was happy to discuss trauma-informed views on family abuse and contact issues. Meaning, my sense (based on her original questions) was that the piece would be 'controversy'-focused, because this is generally the case in the competitive world of journalism these days, but I was still hoping (as a clinician specializing in family psycho-emotional abuse and a certified complex trauma treatment professional) to offer her 'food for thought' to round out her article.
I tested the waters initially by sending her one of my trauma-informed videos on working with survivors of what I named 'family scapegoating abuse' (FSA) (a term I coined during the course of my original family systems-based research on this phenomenon years ago) and shared why an FSA adult survivor might choose to limit or end contact to support their healing and recovery efforts.
I also specifically addressed complex trauma and structural dissociation as related to systemic psycho-emotional abuse, and how this might dictate a client's decisions regarding their level of contact with individual family members or their entire family system while working in therapy (and after) - and there was no apparent interest on her end to follow up with me on this.
Let's just say I was not surprised.
Good to meet you as well!!!
I am so not surprised about your experience. As a survivor myself, I have had to negotiate the rejection I felt when I needed to take a break from my mother, in particular. It was a devastating choice that I needed to make to preserve myself. The kind of coverage that Ellen offered does not forward the conversation and engender compassion and tenderness toward the family member that is suffering. Not ok. I so appreciate your work and I am grateful to be in conversation!!
I feel the same, and I look forward to digging into your Substack posts - I see many pieces already I look forward to reading over my morning coffee soon!
All these comments make me heartsick. I am 73 years old and just since January 2024 realized I was the scapegoat in my family because of my cruel mother. I knew and know I never wanted to be like her but now I have been having to face doing the same to my daughters...one a golden child parentified and one a scapegoat. Needless to say I am estranged from the scapegoat and it was me who cut off contact because I couldn't see what I had done to her and she had been taken from me by my mother...not physically but emotionally. I was ignorant of psychology and what was happening because of allowing her to treat me badly all my life trying to figure out what was wrong with me. I know I am a classic case and these past 6 months I have had such intense shame because I thought I loved my daughters so much and gave my life to them but was actually taking away their lives. It is so hard to face. I was in my 60's before I was able to even become no contact with my mother and when she died 4 years ago I felt such relief. But now not only am I trying to heal my own emotions but trying to accept my losses in relationships with my daughters. As I am healing, I am writing to my daughters apologizing and accepting responsibility. I have not shared these letters yet because I know I am still in a bad place for being confronted by them. I really do love them so much and wanted to be and thought I was a good mom. I didn't know I was emotionally crippled and never would have hurt them intentionally. There is 73 years of too much to say, but I deeply understand and relate as a daughter, a mother, and a grandmother. I am so fortunate to be blessed with relationships with my grandchildren and it is because I didn't try to steal their hearts from their mom. One thing I have achieved. Thank you for listening.
Thank you for sharing such painful realities, Victoria. As a Family Systems therapist who has worked with literally hundreds of families, I can count on one hand the number of parents who were able and willing to face such painful truths and take responsibility for them at the deep level that you have. Family scapegoating is often generational (my mother was severely scapegoated by her grandmother, for example, and later scapegoated me) and it is ultimately a tragedy for the entire family - so many losses, too many to name. I hope you also are cultivating self-compassion as you process these realizations. If you have not yet read my book, 'Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed', it may serve to fill in missing puzzle pieces and aid in the awareness and healing process in regard to what I call 'Family Scapegoating Abuse' (FSA). Regardless, I appreciate your sharing in such a self-honest way and I'm glad you're here.
Rebecca, thank you for your kind words and encouragement. I have read some of your book, but have to take it slowly as it is difficult to process because I am reading it and looking at what I have done to my children and also trying to process what was done to me. I tried to approach my mother many times but she was unwilling to hear me. I definitely do not want to hurt my own children more than I already have so I am seeking to heal so that they want to have relationship with me, hopefully. My mother was married 5 times and my brother and I were dragged through her life and that is all we knew. I first started realizing my situation after I had my first baby. Unfortunately not enough to realize that she would alienate my child from me and I would help her by not recognizing my own issues. My mother parentified, me also, and I did the same to my second daughter and sadly just realized this in the past year. I don't know why it took so long but I truly was not aware. She had made statements to me for years but mostly I couldn't understand why she said the things she did. I feel deeply ashamed and embarrassed about both of my children. I would never have intentionally hurt them! I thought I did everything for them and it has been the greatest disappointment in my self I have ever experienced. My father left when I was 4 years old and married 5 or 6 times as well and came to visit only occasionally throughout my life. I then married someone just like my mother (of course), but again had no idea. I wonder why I was so blind to psychology of human nature although I know not as much information was available or at least, I didn't know about it. I have been divorced for over 30 years and never remarried. I feel I have spent most of my life just trying to survive and be the best person I can be. I have experienced such deep loneliness at my core no matter how many people are in the room...so to speak. Also, it has just been in the past year that I began to recognize myself as I started watching youtube videos about estrangement and reading the comments of the parents, all justifying the parents with a few young people angrily sharing the opposite view. I felt in my spirit that the young people were probably more right than those trying to defend their position of being loving an perfect parents...lol. It was eye opening for me. I have always preferred the truth no matter how painful and boy, has this been painful. Thank you, again, for responding to each one of us who have shared on this site. That is unusual and very kind of you. I am sorry for your experiences, as well. I have tried finding a counselor who understands these dynamics so if you have any knowledge of counselors in or around Eugene, Oregon, I would appreciate knowing of them.
Thank you for sharing this. It takes enormous courage & love to be so honest & accountable.
Your self- reflection even in the midst of such pain, speaks volumes about your character & Spirit.
Please remember to extend compassion to yourself and beware of excessive Self- blame.
If possible please seek the one to one help of a trauma informed therapist
to help you navigate this complexed awakening.
Sending you Hugs🤗 Wishing you every blessing on your journey of recovery 🙏🏽
Sonya Stars, thank you for all your kind words. I really appreciate it. Blessings to you, as well.