Thanks for this detailed and thoughtful article Rebecca. Yes! The irony is that, as a strategy for relating to someone, labelling them as a ‘narcissist’ is essentially narcissistic - taking a stance of devalueing and shaming the other. It is a power grab and attempts to locate either vulnerability or shame in the other. If we feel abused or exploited, it is far more effective (though it can feel more difficult) to name the behaviour. And how the bahaviour made us feel. And i think you also model this more emotionally intelligent approach in places in your article.
Hi Dr. Rogoff - I appreciate your taking the time to read my article and comment. Yes, it is a power grab and like a heat-seeking missile, weaponizing a term like 'narcissist' strikes where one may be most vulnerable. Thank you for such an insightful comment.
What an article. Thank you! What is happening out there in the cyper space🤔?
I am not a lot in the internet. Horrible to hear how violent people are. Abuse everywhere. Are we in a zombie acapolypse? Wishing you good alignment with source Rebecca ♥️
Thank you for writing this. I have been been labeled a narcissist, and it is painful. I was in an emotionally abusive marriage for 27 years and when I got out the fallout for my children was significant. The older two righted themselves pretty quickly but the youngest, who was 14, had a terrible time. Ultimately, at 18 she cut me off. She is now 31 and believes I am the villain who wrecked her life. She has called me every horrible name in the book, among them narcissist. She also says she can’t wait until I die. As a victim of spousal abuse, I have a lot of toxic shame and this sent me into a pit of self-loathing. Fortunately, I have a great therapist and a loving support network. My therapist assures me I am not a narcissist. But the hours I have spent in agony thinking I am a horrible excuse for a human have been torture. Your term “ heat seeking missile” is a perfect description of this kind of cruelty.
So sorry to hear this, Beth. I plan to do a survey soon on adult children becoming alienated from their (scapegoated) parent via the influence of grandparents / extended family / spouses, etc as this did come up more often than I expected during the course of my original research on what I eventually named 'family scapegoating abuse' (FSA). Not sure if you saw my current survey on being labeled a narcissist by one or more family members; survey working on a browser but some people told me they had trouble accessing it on the Substack app. Link to the (brief) survey here, if you're interested: https://familyscapegoathealing.substack.com/survey/746703
Thanks for sharing your gifts! I'm brand new to Substack and was so happy to see that you're here.
Recovery is difficult, dangerous, and exhausting. Even more so with Scapegoat Recovery, which is still in its infancy (but quickly growing thanks to pioneers like you). But the rewards to recovery are incalculable. I truly believe that life rewards you for hanging in there, more importantly, for the way you hang in there. Recovery is that way for me. The result is that I'm immune to gaslighting and insult. What do such people matter to me? May they live and prosper. After all, I've made it this far.
And it is true that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, provided you hang in there. But no one does anything alone. And now we're back to why I'm so grateful to you for your work, and for my many fellow survivors who have chosen the path of Scapegoat Recovery.
Much appreciated, Paul. There is a line from the Tao Te Ching I often think of in regard to becoming immune to weaponized words, terms, and labels designed to diminish, devalue, or otherwise cause harm: "The sword enters the Sage, but does not penetrate." Your comment is inspiring, and it is a pleasure to have you here on my Substack.
I have read this article twice and still have way too many thoughts, so forgive me if I post an essay! First, I agree wholeheartedly that narcissism is having an “It” moment, and this means it is being widely overused and misused. It’s exhausting. I love what you said about victims of family scapegoating abuse or narcissistic abuse being more easily triggered by what may or may not be a narcissist. If the past is in your present, and unresolved, it colors the way you see things. And a rigid, black or white response might feel safer than exploring the nuances in a relationship. But rigid black and white thinking is neither resilient nor adaptive both of which are hallmarks of emotional health. It’s interesting that we live in such polarizing times, and that so much of it seems to come from quick judgments, rigid ideas and labeling others. I am sorry Rebecca that you have had to deal with such venomous and simplistic commentary on the work you share. I am grateful to you for what you do! I think labels help us make sense of things that feel disorganized and overwhelming and scary and threatening and painful. And I dont think that’s a bad thing. But it’s really only a start. If you get too bogged down in the labels, people start to dehumanize one another rather quickly. I am also a firm believer that the only people who can and should diagnose are licensed therapists. Also, the criteria for diagnosis lists symptoms. BEHAVIORS however are what we experience in every day life, such as someone showing a lack of empathy when we share something personal or vulnerable. In order for there to be a diagnosis there has to be a pattern of behaviors. Identifying this pattern takes time, context, and knowing how a person shows up in not just your relationship but in others as well. Sometimes a person is simply emotionally immature and has no idea how to access, be accountable for and process their feelings. That’s actually pretty common. But there is no diagnosis for it. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t cause harm. I love the part about how labeling keeps victims feeling powerless and can even Get them off the hook for their part in things. I definitely did that for a while with my in-laws. I think being scapegoated is horrible because it makes you feel so powerless and like you are going crazy. However, I behaved terribly at times too. I was completely dysregulated in some of our fights, screaming at the top of my lungs exactly what I thought of them. This was also totally immature and hurtful. It took me a minute to hold myself accountable and look at myself and say to myself, you made things worse when you did that. And then to apologize, even though they never apologized to me nor took responsibility for their part in things. But that’s not my problem. I do think, that if you have spent time exploring a relationship with someone (any type of relationship- friendship, romantic, in-law, family) and you have examined and experienced the ways in which they respond to others, the contexts in which their responses come to life, their capacity for vulnerability, self reflection and nuance, and there is a clear pattern of mistreatment of others in their responses combined with no capacity for the vulnerability/ self-reflection, even if there is good, you don’t need a label to justify walking away when that person mistreats you. You just dont. What’s important are the behaviors you are and are not willing to tolerate in your relationships and setting healthy boundaries with consequences around those behaviors. (Something else I was actually terrible at with my in-laws. And usually setting boundaries not an issue for me .) I will give you an example. My mother-in-law, one of the last times I spoke to her, informed me over dinner with my husband that her other daughter-in-law was extremely upset with me because she likes to hug my 4 year old daughter. My SIL felt that I was accusing her of abusing my daughter when I reminded her that she has to ask if my daughter wants to be hugged or not. My MIL said all of this right in front of my 4 year old. She prefaced this statement with: “You always tell us you want us to talk about our feelings so, …” and finished it with “you need to go fix this, she is really hurt. You should go talk to her.” Ok first this is blatant triangulation on both their parts. Second, it’s a gross distortion of my request, third, it happened in front of my 4 year old daughter. I calmly pointed out all 3 of these things to my MIL, who subsequently doubled down on blaming me and insisting on her right to talk about it. My husband finally shut her up but not before my daughter started asking questions , and not before my MIL pointedly told me a 3rd time I needed to go talk to my SIL and fix things. Do I think my MIL is a narcissist? I have no idea. She could be. She has traits. Or did her husband’s behavior rub off on her after 50 years of marriage? It doesn’t matter. What matters is that she weaponized communication by triangulating me, blamed me for something that wasn’t my fault, without asking any questions, told me I needed to fix something that wasn’t mine to fix, and brought up a wildly inappropriate topic about my 4 year old, in front of my 4 year old. What do I think her intentions were? To get her family back together and on good terms. To unite them. A noble cause. However, her behavior and the way she went about it, was terrible. And, it had the opposite effect. Mine and my husband’s attempts to point this out to her the next day were met with same behavior she (and her husband) have consistently exhibited over my 8 years of knowing them: blame shifting, lack of self awareness, belittling, dismissing, invalidating, denial, lack of empathy. So does it really matter what her label is? No, what matters is her longstanding pattern of shit behavior. I did not start off disliking any of my husband’s family. I liked them a lot. I wanted to belong. There are things I still like about them. But I learned, over the years, that in order to fit in, I had to self abandon. I could not have needs if they challenged the family’s needs. It took years for me to unpack and make sense of what was happening and come to an understanding that they were, indeed, a narcissistic family system. But it’s not the label that drove me away, or even gave me permission to walk away. It was their longstanding, complex, intricate patterns of icky behavior, with some good stuff woven into the bad (but not enough), that ultimately allowed me to say no thank you, and no more.
So much wisdom in this comment, Violet. Thanks for re-posting here from the original version in our paid subscriber area; I'm sure many will benefit from reading it, given your personal insights as well as your professional perspective as a licensed therapist.
Thanks for this detailed and thoughtful article Rebecca. Yes! The irony is that, as a strategy for relating to someone, labelling them as a ‘narcissist’ is essentially narcissistic - taking a stance of devalueing and shaming the other. It is a power grab and attempts to locate either vulnerability or shame in the other. If we feel abused or exploited, it is far more effective (though it can feel more difficult) to name the behaviour. And how the bahaviour made us feel. And i think you also model this more emotionally intelligent approach in places in your article.
Hi Dr. Rogoff - I appreciate your taking the time to read my article and comment. Yes, it is a power grab and like a heat-seeking missile, weaponizing a term like 'narcissist' strikes where one may be most vulnerable. Thank you for such an insightful comment.
What an article. Thank you! What is happening out there in the cyper space🤔?
I am not a lot in the internet. Horrible to hear how violent people are. Abuse everywhere. Are we in a zombie acapolypse? Wishing you good alignment with source Rebecca ♥️
Thank you for writing this. I have been been labeled a narcissist, and it is painful. I was in an emotionally abusive marriage for 27 years and when I got out the fallout for my children was significant. The older two righted themselves pretty quickly but the youngest, who was 14, had a terrible time. Ultimately, at 18 she cut me off. She is now 31 and believes I am the villain who wrecked her life. She has called me every horrible name in the book, among them narcissist. She also says she can’t wait until I die. As a victim of spousal abuse, I have a lot of toxic shame and this sent me into a pit of self-loathing. Fortunately, I have a great therapist and a loving support network. My therapist assures me I am not a narcissist. But the hours I have spent in agony thinking I am a horrible excuse for a human have been torture. Your term “ heat seeking missile” is a perfect description of this kind of cruelty.
So sorry to hear this, Beth. I plan to do a survey soon on adult children becoming alienated from their (scapegoated) parent via the influence of grandparents / extended family / spouses, etc as this did come up more often than I expected during the course of my original research on what I eventually named 'family scapegoating abuse' (FSA). Not sure if you saw my current survey on being labeled a narcissist by one or more family members; survey working on a browser but some people told me they had trouble accessing it on the Substack app. Link to the (brief) survey here, if you're interested: https://familyscapegoathealing.substack.com/survey/746703
I'm very grateful to you Rebecca.
Thanks for sharing your gifts! I'm brand new to Substack and was so happy to see that you're here.
Recovery is difficult, dangerous, and exhausting. Even more so with Scapegoat Recovery, which is still in its infancy (but quickly growing thanks to pioneers like you). But the rewards to recovery are incalculable. I truly believe that life rewards you for hanging in there, more importantly, for the way you hang in there. Recovery is that way for me. The result is that I'm immune to gaslighting and insult. What do such people matter to me? May they live and prosper. After all, I've made it this far.
And it is true that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, provided you hang in there. But no one does anything alone. And now we're back to why I'm so grateful to you for your work, and for my many fellow survivors who have chosen the path of Scapegoat Recovery.
All the best from Patagonia, Argentina!
Much appreciated, Paul. There is a line from the Tao Te Ching I often think of in regard to becoming immune to weaponized words, terms, and labels designed to diminish, devalue, or otherwise cause harm: "The sword enters the Sage, but does not penetrate." Your comment is inspiring, and it is a pleasure to have you here on my Substack.
I have read this article twice and still have way too many thoughts, so forgive me if I post an essay! First, I agree wholeheartedly that narcissism is having an “It” moment, and this means it is being widely overused and misused. It’s exhausting. I love what you said about victims of family scapegoating abuse or narcissistic abuse being more easily triggered by what may or may not be a narcissist. If the past is in your present, and unresolved, it colors the way you see things. And a rigid, black or white response might feel safer than exploring the nuances in a relationship. But rigid black and white thinking is neither resilient nor adaptive both of which are hallmarks of emotional health. It’s interesting that we live in such polarizing times, and that so much of it seems to come from quick judgments, rigid ideas and labeling others. I am sorry Rebecca that you have had to deal with such venomous and simplistic commentary on the work you share. I am grateful to you for what you do! I think labels help us make sense of things that feel disorganized and overwhelming and scary and threatening and painful. And I dont think that’s a bad thing. But it’s really only a start. If you get too bogged down in the labels, people start to dehumanize one another rather quickly. I am also a firm believer that the only people who can and should diagnose are licensed therapists. Also, the criteria for diagnosis lists symptoms. BEHAVIORS however are what we experience in every day life, such as someone showing a lack of empathy when we share something personal or vulnerable. In order for there to be a diagnosis there has to be a pattern of behaviors. Identifying this pattern takes time, context, and knowing how a person shows up in not just your relationship but in others as well. Sometimes a person is simply emotionally immature and has no idea how to access, be accountable for and process their feelings. That’s actually pretty common. But there is no diagnosis for it. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t cause harm. I love the part about how labeling keeps victims feeling powerless and can even Get them off the hook for their part in things. I definitely did that for a while with my in-laws. I think being scapegoated is horrible because it makes you feel so powerless and like you are going crazy. However, I behaved terribly at times too. I was completely dysregulated in some of our fights, screaming at the top of my lungs exactly what I thought of them. This was also totally immature and hurtful. It took me a minute to hold myself accountable and look at myself and say to myself, you made things worse when you did that. And then to apologize, even though they never apologized to me nor took responsibility for their part in things. But that’s not my problem. I do think, that if you have spent time exploring a relationship with someone (any type of relationship- friendship, romantic, in-law, family) and you have examined and experienced the ways in which they respond to others, the contexts in which their responses come to life, their capacity for vulnerability, self reflection and nuance, and there is a clear pattern of mistreatment of others in their responses combined with no capacity for the vulnerability/ self-reflection, even if there is good, you don’t need a label to justify walking away when that person mistreats you. You just dont. What’s important are the behaviors you are and are not willing to tolerate in your relationships and setting healthy boundaries with consequences around those behaviors. (Something else I was actually terrible at with my in-laws. And usually setting boundaries not an issue for me .) I will give you an example. My mother-in-law, one of the last times I spoke to her, informed me over dinner with my husband that her other daughter-in-law was extremely upset with me because she likes to hug my 4 year old daughter. My SIL felt that I was accusing her of abusing my daughter when I reminded her that she has to ask if my daughter wants to be hugged or not. My MIL said all of this right in front of my 4 year old. She prefaced this statement with: “You always tell us you want us to talk about our feelings so, …” and finished it with “you need to go fix this, she is really hurt. You should go talk to her.” Ok first this is blatant triangulation on both their parts. Second, it’s a gross distortion of my request, third, it happened in front of my 4 year old daughter. I calmly pointed out all 3 of these things to my MIL, who subsequently doubled down on blaming me and insisting on her right to talk about it. My husband finally shut her up but not before my daughter started asking questions , and not before my MIL pointedly told me a 3rd time I needed to go talk to my SIL and fix things. Do I think my MIL is a narcissist? I have no idea. She could be. She has traits. Or did her husband’s behavior rub off on her after 50 years of marriage? It doesn’t matter. What matters is that she weaponized communication by triangulating me, blamed me for something that wasn’t my fault, without asking any questions, told me I needed to fix something that wasn’t mine to fix, and brought up a wildly inappropriate topic about my 4 year old, in front of my 4 year old. What do I think her intentions were? To get her family back together and on good terms. To unite them. A noble cause. However, her behavior and the way she went about it, was terrible. And, it had the opposite effect. Mine and my husband’s attempts to point this out to her the next day were met with same behavior she (and her husband) have consistently exhibited over my 8 years of knowing them: blame shifting, lack of self awareness, belittling, dismissing, invalidating, denial, lack of empathy. So does it really matter what her label is? No, what matters is her longstanding pattern of shit behavior. I did not start off disliking any of my husband’s family. I liked them a lot. I wanted to belong. There are things I still like about them. But I learned, over the years, that in order to fit in, I had to self abandon. I could not have needs if they challenged the family’s needs. It took years for me to unpack and make sense of what was happening and come to an understanding that they were, indeed, a narcissistic family system. But it’s not the label that drove me away, or even gave me permission to walk away. It was their longstanding, complex, intricate patterns of icky behavior, with some good stuff woven into the bad (but not enough), that ultimately allowed me to say no thank you, and no more.
So much wisdom in this comment, Violet. Thanks for re-posting here from the original version in our paid subscriber area; I'm sure many will benefit from reading it, given your personal insights as well as your professional perspective as a licensed therapist.