If I were to share FSA with my family they would instantly DARVO. Not only that but they’ve done DARVO since forever regarding me because I questioned the dysfunction AND could not go along with enabling a perpetrator parent. So bizarre. Even tho abusive behavior continued in the present the story is I wouldn’t let go of the past or forgive (what was never actually acknowledged.) Not only that but they don’t want to even know why I distanced them.
Yep - sounds like DARVO to me, in particular, implying the FSA target is flawed, out of line, and 'the problem' because they won't "let it go," "forgive," "move on," etc. This also can tie into the weaponization of religious principles and precepts.
My experience has been very similar to yours. It's crazymaking behavior from people who not only are supposed to support us, but who would claim they DO support us. It does not get more messed up than this. Sorry you have gone through it too.
THANK YOU Rebecca. The aggression was relentless, and it forced me to remove myself, even as I was being kicked out of the circle of delusion. A draining and dispiriting experience.
Profound and spot on for my FSA experiences - the explanation along with Rebecca’s work and tools has lifted my helpless hopelessness to believe there is light at the end of that tunnel - I can recover me - and there are thousands like me when for so long I felt very alone and unable to see a way forward. Ty to the pioneers, especially Ms. Rebecca ❤️ for the chance at a few good years in my life - forever grateful M❤️
Mosis, I am grateful to hear that my FSA research and publications have impacted you so profoundly. Are you amenable to me restacking your comment here for my subscribers to read?
Hi Mosis, I've always wanted to do this sort of thing but believe it or not, when I've offered, nobody seemed interested. I came to discover many people here and elsewhere never read my book! However, now that our Substack community is thriving on the paid membership side, it seems like a good time to try again. Were you thinking this would be a Chat thread discussion or...?
I do believe if folks haven’t read your book the group would inspire them to - I hosted all recovery zoom calls for a year - it did really well via zoom - just an hour face to face where everyone does a brief check in after reading a snippet from your book to guide/frame discussion.
I have looked for support groups for FSA and found only one that didn’t meet Jan 20 due to host being ill. I bet if you asked for volunteers, a different person could lead each week and I would be willing to run the zoom if you could not or however you see it working. Having the Substack is pivotal for content but the connection of others in relating face to face for me is missing. I understand if it doesn’t work - just thought I could suggest and let you know I would definitely support it! Ty for your interest and thoughts. M❤️
I'd love to do Zoom eventually but can't right now due to personal reasons you may have seen me share privately in Chat. I also have to contact my attorney regarding my taking Substack subscribers off the platform to Zoom (liability issues, etc) so it may or may not be an option. Perhaps send me a direct message and we can discuss privately what might be possible at this time, given my personal situation - I do appreciate your offer to assist. It's 3 am here so hitting the sack but look forward to exploring this further with you.
Thanks for another excellent article Rebecca. Yes DARVO seems to be a huge part of FSA. It really is the crazy making part of FSA. It's been eye opening to realize how many have endured this type of abuse. Until I found your work and book on FSA I did feel alone and never talked about this with anyone (other than my partner) as I felt no one would believe that someone's family would be so cruel for no valid reason. If people have not experienced FSA they seem to think a family would never do such cruel things unless you did horrible things to them first. Thank you for shining a bright light on FSA and exposing this insidious abuse because from my experience the abusers try to keep it hidden and use DARVO to protect their self righteous image of perfection.
Particularly true in a narcissistic family system - the FSA behaviors being deliberate. Highly traumatized dysfunctional family systems are not always conscious of the truth of the situation due to the Family Projective Identification Process. I’m so glad you found my work and that my research and writings have helped you to feel seen, validated, and hopefully given you a sense that you are not alone. Because here on my Substack, you’re not. There are many people (FSA survivors) who understand. Glad you’re here.
My folks subjected me to this stuff for decades, causing profound and agonising emotional distress. The confusion on being told 'You're always attacking me' whenever I remonstrated left me feeling like a terrible person. And the gaslighting meant it took me until age 59 to realise I did in fact have rights and finally removed myself. Just remembering those episodes makes me feel physically sick. I only wish I'd realised sooner how damaging it was. Thanks for the validation
You’re very welcome. Many of us here in my Substack community are in our 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. Many of us wonder how our lives might have unfolded had we understood things like DARVO and FSA earlier. I am constantly grateful that my research on what I named ‘family scapegoating abuse’ (FSA) and the associated terms I created to describe this poorly understood form of are helping so many people world-wide. And grateful to Dr. Jennifer Freyd for her work on Betrayal Trauma, DARVO, etc., that supports my work.
Understanding DARVO communication patterns has been illuminating. As the SG in my family this was a constant form of communication that my parents instilled in my 4 older sibs. After my divorce and leaving the Navy, I returned to be with my aging mother. I was the only single sib so I offered. I started to realize the narrative they had created about me while I had been gone for a decade and it at first gutted me. As it unfolded in ways like gaslighting, exclusion, dismissiveness, and being treated as less than. I also slowly realized this didn't just start, this had been going on forever, my time away helped me see it. But at the time we didn't know what we know now and I had no idea what it meant or how to resolve it. I lived in 5 countries while I was in the military and not one family member asked me about my time in Europe, they took no interest in me or my life except to blame me for my divorce and side with my ex. My mother and oldest parentified sister said "so what if he wanted to have a few drinks with his friends, you know you're not perfect" This coming from 2 women with alcoholic husbands, my father. Get in your place and who do you think you are? WTF! Who were these people? It's taken a long time to disentangle and make some sense of the FSA and feel more and more validation as these toxic patterns are given language and labeled as abuse. Good to be here with you all.
It’s wonderful to have you here with us, Elizabeth, I always appreciate your comments. That moment when you realize the ‘scapegoat narrative’ has been happening for years and many (if not all) family members (including extended) are ‘indoctrinated’ into it (including nieces and nephews) is a real kick in the gut. In my introductory book on FSA, ‘Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed’, I liken it to the end of the movie, ‘The Usual Suspects’ - it is a truly shocking moment as one realizes the actual narrative the family has about them, and the damage that is being done as a result. This is one I know first-hand, by the way, so I related to much of your comment here.
I had a similar experience having served in the military and realizing later on that my family of origin, in particular my envious birth mother who never left where she grew up, created a similar story around me. I eventually realized that the years after I left the service were spent with them looking for reasons and evidence of why I "wasn't so special or so smart" and determinedly finding fault and highlighting imperfection and mistakes until they'd really torn my life up. Leaving and living around the world and having been seen by your service family, and others outside the family of origin, as a worthwhile, valuable person was probably a threat to their insecurities.
Brooke, thank you. I'm sorry for your experience. It's taken some time to fully integrate that it was never me, it was all about their insecurities and feeling threatened. So much unnecessary exclusion and pain we've suffered.
Yes, this is typically the case. This is a definite aspect of FSA - being torn apart by family, your accomplishments or talents, etc, dismissed, denigrated, or denied. I mention this dynamic in one of my earliest videos on FSA here: https://youtu.be/J7oHsRjBHRE
Hello Rebecca. I read part of this article and it's so true, dear. You are right about DARVO. And, I think that such people should never have kids. They don't deserve to have sex! Do you understand what this means? Exactly! Procreating in order to spread misery upon one's offspring is really not the way to go! What's the point of being born, if you are born to diabolical parents? Especially when you are proper and good as the Black Sheep or Scapegoat! You should have been born to another family. Clearly!
Shifting the blame from Narcissistic Parental Abusers, aided and abetted by Parentified Children or The Golden Children, is all too common in Family Scapegoat Abuse. The Power Wielded by such Diabolical Humans is Abominable. And, it's happening all around the world. I knew a PhD Psychologist who told me that at least 60% of the World's Population has a Mental Illness or Disorder! Can you imagine? Harvard University is saying it's 50%. And, that's an understatement, in my opinion!
Weighty stuff. Lots of reflection needed on this, so I might come back at some point to leave another comment.
But for now, I'll say that one big traumatic memory that pops up for me is how my youngest sister expressed incredulousness that I would distance myself from her, too.
This was after I finally cut contact with both her and my youngest brother.
This was after they kidnapped my 13-year-old son, and took him away for a four day drinking and drugging binge that they were planning on going on, under the guise of a "vacation."
What they really wanted was for my son to help babysit their younger children.
And they did quite a number on my son, because when he returned, and I'd expressed tears and relief, letting him know how distressed I've been when I didn't know where he was, he said to me, "what's wrong with going on a family vacation."
So the damage they did was in their DARVO gaslighting taking root in my son's mind (the following year, his abusive alcoholic father perpetrated a parental alienation, plucking him out of my and his younger sister's life, having set the stage between the summer that my youngest siblings kidnapped him and the following summer, when his father performed his psychological kidnapping).
Anyway, when I was desperately calling around to try to find where my brother was, I encountered a phone call with my mother, whom I had distanced myself from because of her longtime unrepentant emotionally abusive behavior.
It became clear to me that she knew where they had gone, but was reluctant to tell me. Until I said I'd have no choice but to call the state police. When I finally got my brother on the phone, I heard my sister on another line. They were both drunk as could be. My sister was so drunk that I suppose she didn't realize that I could hear her saying, with the receiver held to her chest, "Yeah! She sounds pissed! Doesn't she sound pissed? Yeah!" So demonstrating malicious intent to cause harm.
During a phone call a year later, my sister expressed incredulousness that I'd included her in my now total boundary with foo contact (I'd gone nc w/parents and 4 other siblings already).
During this brief phone call, regarding now including her in nc boundary, she said, "yeah but me? You're gonna cut off me??"
So the dynamic and message is crystal clear: anything we do is perfectly fine, and if you have any problem with it, YOU are the problem.
Up to an including kidnapping, apparently.
The insecurity as an effect of fsa DARVO is something I am still grappling with. There is the intellectual understanding of trauma and then there is the emotional work.
Holy hell.
It's wrecked my self confidence in so many ways, not least of all in defining, interpreting, and belief in *my* experience of *my* reality.
It really feels as though I am in need of some sort of emotional de-programming. Their lack of regard extends to a level of mocking, of derision. Contempt. For your suffering and the effects of their fsa.
Like beating you down and then kicking you for getting blood on the carpet.
Oh wow. This is exactly what happened to me. When I defended myself from my evil sister's attacks, I was accused of "attacking my sister." This persists to this day.
Thank you!
You're welcome, LinMaree!
Thank you Rebecca for describing my experience.
You're welcome, Lavada.
If I were to share FSA with my family they would instantly DARVO. Not only that but they’ve done DARVO since forever regarding me because I questioned the dysfunction AND could not go along with enabling a perpetrator parent. So bizarre. Even tho abusive behavior continued in the present the story is I wouldn’t let go of the past or forgive (what was never actually acknowledged.) Not only that but they don’t want to even know why I distanced them.
Yep - sounds like DARVO to me, in particular, implying the FSA target is flawed, out of line, and 'the problem' because they won't "let it go," "forgive," "move on," etc. This also can tie into the weaponization of religious principles and precepts.
Exactly!
My experience has been very similar to yours. It's crazymaking behavior from people who not only are supposed to support us, but who would claim they DO support us. It does not get more messed up than this. Sorry you have gone through it too.
“It does not get more messed up than this.” For sure. Solidarity! My thoughts are always with you. Sister!
Thank you so much… I’m really glad you posted this today… and the key word is attack…😒
Yes - I'd agree!
THANK YOU Rebecca. The aggression was relentless, and it forced me to remove myself, even as I was being kicked out of the circle of delusion. A draining and dispiriting experience.
You're so very welcome, Rebecca. Yes, DARVO does have a relentless - also merciless - nature about it.
Profound and spot on for my FSA experiences - the explanation along with Rebecca’s work and tools has lifted my helpless hopelessness to believe there is light at the end of that tunnel - I can recover me - and there are thousands like me when for so long I felt very alone and unable to see a way forward. Ty to the pioneers, especially Ms. Rebecca ❤️ for the chance at a few good years in my life - forever grateful M❤️
Mosis, I am grateful to hear that my FSA research and publications have impacted you so profoundly. Are you amenable to me restacking your comment here for my subscribers to read?
Of course - I would be honored I read your book in one day ❤️
Thanks! But only just now realized I can't restack comments in posts, just notes!
Hi Rebecca - circling back Is there any opportunity to host a weekly peer to peer book discussion for Rejected, Shamed and Blamed?
Hi Mosis, I've always wanted to do this sort of thing but believe it or not, when I've offered, nobody seemed interested. I came to discover many people here and elsewhere never read my book! However, now that our Substack community is thriving on the paid membership side, it seems like a good time to try again. Were you thinking this would be a Chat thread discussion or...?
I do believe if folks haven’t read your book the group would inspire them to - I hosted all recovery zoom calls for a year - it did really well via zoom - just an hour face to face where everyone does a brief check in after reading a snippet from your book to guide/frame discussion.
I have looked for support groups for FSA and found only one that didn’t meet Jan 20 due to host being ill. I bet if you asked for volunteers, a different person could lead each week and I would be willing to run the zoom if you could not or however you see it working. Having the Substack is pivotal for content but the connection of others in relating face to face for me is missing. I understand if it doesn’t work - just thought I could suggest and let you know I would definitely support it! Ty for your interest and thoughts. M❤️
I'd love to do Zoom eventually but can't right now due to personal reasons you may have seen me share privately in Chat. I also have to contact my attorney regarding my taking Substack subscribers off the platform to Zoom (liability issues, etc) so it may or may not be an option. Perhaps send me a direct message and we can discuss privately what might be possible at this time, given my personal situation - I do appreciate your offer to assist. It's 3 am here so hitting the sack but look forward to exploring this further with you.
Thanks for another excellent article Rebecca. Yes DARVO seems to be a huge part of FSA. It really is the crazy making part of FSA. It's been eye opening to realize how many have endured this type of abuse. Until I found your work and book on FSA I did feel alone and never talked about this with anyone (other than my partner) as I felt no one would believe that someone's family would be so cruel for no valid reason. If people have not experienced FSA they seem to think a family would never do such cruel things unless you did horrible things to them first. Thank you for shining a bright light on FSA and exposing this insidious abuse because from my experience the abusers try to keep it hidden and use DARVO to protect their self righteous image of perfection.
Particularly true in a narcissistic family system - the FSA behaviors being deliberate. Highly traumatized dysfunctional family systems are not always conscious of the truth of the situation due to the Family Projective Identification Process. I’m so glad you found my work and that my research and writings have helped you to feel seen, validated, and hopefully given you a sense that you are not alone. Because here on my Substack, you’re not. There are many people (FSA survivors) who understand. Glad you’re here.
Yes Rebecca, that is so very true as I have realized my older sisters are extremely narcissistic.
This is my YouTube video playlist on narcissistic family systems and FSA: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXSLEoZOeKOG0kEz38adKTjd-GKYjFhZD
Thank you so much Rebecca! You are always so helpful! This playlist is spot on. It will be most handy and resourceful!
You're welcome, Rosalee!
So helpful, as always! Thank you, Rebecca!
You're welcome, Michelle.
My folks subjected me to this stuff for decades, causing profound and agonising emotional distress. The confusion on being told 'You're always attacking me' whenever I remonstrated left me feeling like a terrible person. And the gaslighting meant it took me until age 59 to realise I did in fact have rights and finally removed myself. Just remembering those episodes makes me feel physically sick. I only wish I'd realised sooner how damaging it was. Thanks for the validation
You’re very welcome. Many of us here in my Substack community are in our 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. Many of us wonder how our lives might have unfolded had we understood things like DARVO and FSA earlier. I am constantly grateful that my research on what I named ‘family scapegoating abuse’ (FSA) and the associated terms I created to describe this poorly understood form of are helping so many people world-wide. And grateful to Dr. Jennifer Freyd for her work on Betrayal Trauma, DARVO, etc., that supports my work.
Understanding DARVO communication patterns has been illuminating. As the SG in my family this was a constant form of communication that my parents instilled in my 4 older sibs. After my divorce and leaving the Navy, I returned to be with my aging mother. I was the only single sib so I offered. I started to realize the narrative they had created about me while I had been gone for a decade and it at first gutted me. As it unfolded in ways like gaslighting, exclusion, dismissiveness, and being treated as less than. I also slowly realized this didn't just start, this had been going on forever, my time away helped me see it. But at the time we didn't know what we know now and I had no idea what it meant or how to resolve it. I lived in 5 countries while I was in the military and not one family member asked me about my time in Europe, they took no interest in me or my life except to blame me for my divorce and side with my ex. My mother and oldest parentified sister said "so what if he wanted to have a few drinks with his friends, you know you're not perfect" This coming from 2 women with alcoholic husbands, my father. Get in your place and who do you think you are? WTF! Who were these people? It's taken a long time to disentangle and make some sense of the FSA and feel more and more validation as these toxic patterns are given language and labeled as abuse. Good to be here with you all.
It’s wonderful to have you here with us, Elizabeth, I always appreciate your comments. That moment when you realize the ‘scapegoat narrative’ has been happening for years and many (if not all) family members (including extended) are ‘indoctrinated’ into it (including nieces and nephews) is a real kick in the gut. In my introductory book on FSA, ‘Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed’, I liken it to the end of the movie, ‘The Usual Suspects’ - it is a truly shocking moment as one realizes the actual narrative the family has about them, and the damage that is being done as a result. This is one I know first-hand, by the way, so I related to much of your comment here.
Thanks Rebecca 🤗
I had a similar experience having served in the military and realizing later on that my family of origin, in particular my envious birth mother who never left where she grew up, created a similar story around me. I eventually realized that the years after I left the service were spent with them looking for reasons and evidence of why I "wasn't so special or so smart" and determinedly finding fault and highlighting imperfection and mistakes until they'd really torn my life up. Leaving and living around the world and having been seen by your service family, and others outside the family of origin, as a worthwhile, valuable person was probably a threat to their insecurities.
Brooke, thank you. I'm sorry for your experience. It's taken some time to fully integrate that it was never me, it was all about their insecurities and feeling threatened. So much unnecessary exclusion and pain we've suffered.
Yes, this is typically the case. This is a definite aspect of FSA - being torn apart by family, your accomplishments or talents, etc, dismissed, denigrated, or denied. I mention this dynamic in one of my earliest videos on FSA here: https://youtu.be/J7oHsRjBHRE
No, it’s a response to the OP and just happens to be stacked right below yours.
You’ve had a pretty rough time of it.
You're very welcome, Michelle!
Thank you from the bottom of my heart (and all the other areas, too!).
You're very welcome - from all of me to all of you!
Hello Rebecca. I read part of this article and it's so true, dear. You are right about DARVO. And, I think that such people should never have kids. They don't deserve to have sex! Do you understand what this means? Exactly! Procreating in order to spread misery upon one's offspring is really not the way to go! What's the point of being born, if you are born to diabolical parents? Especially when you are proper and good as the Black Sheep or Scapegoat! You should have been born to another family. Clearly!
Shifting the blame from Narcissistic Parental Abusers, aided and abetted by Parentified Children or The Golden Children, is all too common in Family Scapegoat Abuse. The Power Wielded by such Diabolical Humans is Abominable. And, it's happening all around the world. I knew a PhD Psychologist who told me that at least 60% of the World's Population has a Mental Illness or Disorder! Can you imagine? Harvard University is saying it's 50%. And, that's an understatement, in my opinion!
Weighty stuff. Lots of reflection needed on this, so I might come back at some point to leave another comment.
But for now, I'll say that one big traumatic memory that pops up for me is how my youngest sister expressed incredulousness that I would distance myself from her, too.
This was after I finally cut contact with both her and my youngest brother.
This was after they kidnapped my 13-year-old son, and took him away for a four day drinking and drugging binge that they were planning on going on, under the guise of a "vacation."
What they really wanted was for my son to help babysit their younger children.
And they did quite a number on my son, because when he returned, and I'd expressed tears and relief, letting him know how distressed I've been when I didn't know where he was, he said to me, "what's wrong with going on a family vacation."
So the damage they did was in their DARVO gaslighting taking root in my son's mind (the following year, his abusive alcoholic father perpetrated a parental alienation, plucking him out of my and his younger sister's life, having set the stage between the summer that my youngest siblings kidnapped him and the following summer, when his father performed his psychological kidnapping).
Anyway, when I was desperately calling around to try to find where my brother was, I encountered a phone call with my mother, whom I had distanced myself from because of her longtime unrepentant emotionally abusive behavior.
It became clear to me that she knew where they had gone, but was reluctant to tell me. Until I said I'd have no choice but to call the state police. When I finally got my brother on the phone, I heard my sister on another line. They were both drunk as could be. My sister was so drunk that I suppose she didn't realize that I could hear her saying, with the receiver held to her chest, "Yeah! She sounds pissed! Doesn't she sound pissed? Yeah!" So demonstrating malicious intent to cause harm.
During a phone call a year later, my sister expressed incredulousness that I'd included her in my now total boundary with foo contact (I'd gone nc w/parents and 4 other siblings already).
During this brief phone call, regarding now including her in nc boundary, she said, "yeah but me? You're gonna cut off me??"
So the dynamic and message is crystal clear: anything we do is perfectly fine, and if you have any problem with it, YOU are the problem.
Up to an including kidnapping, apparently.
The insecurity as an effect of fsa DARVO is something I am still grappling with. There is the intellectual understanding of trauma and then there is the emotional work.
Holy hell.
It's wrecked my self confidence in so many ways, not least of all in defining, interpreting, and belief in *my* experience of *my* reality.
It really feels as though I am in need of some sort of emotional de-programming. Their lack of regard extends to a level of mocking, of derision. Contempt. For your suffering and the effects of their fsa.
Like beating you down and then kicking you for getting blood on the carpet.
Thank you
Oh wow. This is exactly what happened to me. When I defended myself from my evil sister's attacks, I was accused of "attacking my sister." This persists to this day.
Hi Ken. Just checking if your reply was directed at my comment?
Hi Pamela - Ken was directing his comment to me, in case he misses your query. So many comments here, it is getting a bit confusing.