With special guest, Dr. Aun Ali - A recording from Healing the Scapegoat Wound on Substack with Rebecca C. Mandeville, LMFT, CCTP (author of 'Rejected, Shamed, and Blamed')
Wow Rebecca, there are times you speak and I feel as if I'm looking into a mirror of my life...
I too was selectively mute - very shut down - till around aged 12.
Also I've lived 'various different lives' and only really now as an ongoing process, am I integrating those various aspects of 'Self'.
Taught myself to do the 'social thing' (quite well I might add 😆) as I knew by aged 13 if I didn't get 'past that wall' separating me from others, I'd be stuck behind it forever. Intuitively I knew the break through (through the 'glass screen of separation') had to happen.
It's only been the last few years I've realised 'yes, am neurodivergent' and frankly I love it 😃 Allows one to think in very 'neurodivergent ways' (to survive) and it's just one of the reasons am still here.
With one foot in the so called 'conventional neurotypical world' and one in the 'neurodivergent world') it allowed for successes in tutoring 'ASD' kids in an Special Education classroom.
Taught the kids techniques I'd self taught the 'Self'! Ha! 😂
Thankyou for your awesome insight and intelligence, your bravery, your honesty.
Truly it's so refreshing to hear of your life and sharing clinical experience and expertise.
Wow back at ya, Daisy! What an amazing story - and yes, so similar to mine, we should compare notes! I do private livestreams once a month with my paid subscribers where I let my hair down even more. And then there's my free publication here on Substack, 'The Inviolate Self' where I share in a very raw and real way - Hopefully you're already subscribed to that. Loved hearing from you and glad you could watch the livestream!
Great livestream, and thanks so much Rebecca for posing my questions to Dr. Rogoff. I really appreciate the information and discussion. Many thanks to Dr. Rogoff and Dr. Aun Ali. As Dr. Rogoff noted it was a "deceptive process" that took place. I was told I was being sent to "someone" for "help with sleep meds" as chemo/steroids made sleep difficult. I was not informed the "someone" was a psychiatrist and did not consent to an 'assessment'. In fact almost the entire conversation with the psychiatrist was me explaining the challenges I was dealing with during cancer treatment, including being so dizzy I fell and suffered a serious head injury that left me unconscious and bleeding from a head laceration requiring stitches and CT scan at the ER. There were many adverse effects of chemo, including vertigo, tinnitus and daily profuse nosebleeds, one so profuse I had to call paramedics. When my estranged eldest FSA sibling first phoned to make up damaging lies she stated that SHE "wanted me assessed" and falsely claimed I had been diagnosed with BPD in the past (totally fabricated, never even heard of BPD before) My sibling knew I was not doing well but did want to offer any help. The thing is I never asked them for any help and did not even want their help. But my sibling hatched a plan to get me labelled with BPD and thrown in the psych ward so she and another sister would not feel guilty, or look bad, for not offering any support. Their biggest concern was protecting their image and relieving their guilt and paranoia. They even garnered some sympathy for themselves. The psychiatrist actually documented she told my sister that she and my other sisters "must set their boundaries" with me - when I was not calling them and no longer had any contact. An extreme and insane case of FSA DARVO.
You’re so welcome, Rosalee, we appreciated having you there as we tried to help sort out your ongoing ‘saga’ of being misdiagnosed. I’ll tag @Dr Simon Rogoff and @Aun Ali, MBBS here so that they see this comment. Keep me posted, I’m very much engrossed in this journey you are on - although we can’t do much to help, at least you know we are with you providing emotional support - You are not alone! And yes, and EXTREME case of DARVO, one that might even make Dr. Jennifer Freyd's head spin (she coined the term)! I mention DARVO in my post that's coming out tomorrow, btw, be sure to check it out.
Oh thank you Rebecca! The support means the world to me. I had kept silent about my ordeal as I felt no one would relate to having siblings or other family members who would do such cruel things. Finding your work, book and the community members you have brought together was a Godsend. I am also grateful to Dr. Aun Ali for speaking about his experience with being erroneously labelled with BPD after dealing with so much trauma and danger before coming to Canada. Since this has been on my electronic records in Canada I learned how this label is used as a weapon to punish or dismiss anything a person says who has this label "pasted" on them. Dr. Aun Ali used the word "pasted" and it's the perfect word as the label gets stuck on like glue. I look forward to further livestreams you will have with Dr. Rogoff and Dr. Aun Ali.
Sadly, I know this indeed happens, Rosalee. I had a (former) client in Canada and she went to a pain management clinic that was supposed to be trauma-informed and next thing she knew, they had diagnosed her as BPD - which she absolutely was not! They diagnosed her with this after she begged them not to take her legally prescribed pot that she used for pain management.
And yes, as soon as that diagnosis is seen, you’re pretty much toast, as therapists, etc, then see any and all of your more ‘problematic’ (for them) behaviors as due to your being ‘Borderline’. It is most dehumanizing. Similar to Freud calling most any woman with a pulse ‘histrionic’. Again, I’ll tag @Dr Simon Rogoff and Dr. @Aun Ali, MBBS here so they can read your comment. And for sure I’ll have them on again for another livestream Collab.
I’m glad to help Rosalee, yes it’s a most isolating experience and goes against the spirit of the profession to trap people like this. I’m going to be writing more on my experience and how I managed to get my care needs met!
That sounds great Dr. Ali, I will be VERY interested to read of your experience and how you managed to deal with the situation. When I later consulted with the Director (at the same clinic) who is a Psychiatrist of 30+ years, (and who called my ordeal a "horror story", stated "the system had failed" and the other psychiatrist "needed to retract this diagnosis") I told him of how I was being denied health services and treated in a most dehumanizing manner by any health professional that reads my electronic records. He suggested maybe trying to be more "assertive" to get the health care I needed. Being assertive is good quality in some situations but I learned with that label if you are even somewhat assertive you will be viewed as 'demanding' or 'difficult' and if you are too pleasant and co-operative then you will be viewed as 'manipulative'. With that label you are in a no-win situation. Thanks and I look forward to your future writing!
100% to all of this, Rosalee - It puts you in a double bind. It is a terrible diagnosis and I understand completely why you want this off of your medical records.
Thanks for your support! Just wanted to tell you a quick update....just looked through some notes I made of appts with the Director/Psychiatrist.....At one appt he asked me "Why do you think she will not retract this diagnosis when you have provided her more than enough evidence?" I replied "I don't know, maybe arrogance". He then replied "Well that's probably part of it, but it is because it's a misdiagnosis and that means a lawsuit". But the deadline to file one had passed making it more tricky and even if I was granted an exception in Canada it is impossible to find a lawyer who would take on a lawsuit against a Doctor because of the CMPA aka Canadian Medical Protective Assoc. (an organization supported with taxpayer dollars to provide free legal representation to doctors and has a ton of money in their war chest, making it a David/Goliath no-win situation) But that was his thoughts on why she would not retract as he believes she knows she made a gross mistake.
Aun, if you want to do a dedicated collaborative livestream on this subject of misdiagnosis and the BPD diagnosis (when it was trauma) on my Substack this would be a conversation I think many would be interested in. Let me know what you think in a DM.
Just to add something for further info/thoughts on this subject. When my partner attended one of my appts with the Director/Psychiatrist, my partner (who had retired from regular force military & now worked at Dept of Defense with injured & ill soldiers, incl PTSD) inquired if a diagnosis of PTSD would help me in light of all that happened during cancer treatments, incl major abuse from medical personnel after the label was on my records. Dr. G emphatically said "No, you don't want to go that route. The diagnoses are considered to be very similar." I have always wondered about that.
Rest assured Rosalee, some of us do have family members who have made our lives extremely problematic. In this, believe me, you are not alone and there is no stigma in it. At all.
This is not to minimise in any way your experiences, the betrayal and abandonment trauma of family (nuclear and extended) is one of the most profoundly traumatic experiences one can ever go through. And survive.
Cause 'family' are meant to be our 'safe space'. We're wired that way. When it's not, well the devastation is very hard on the soul. Cuts very deep. Hurts like hell.
Really enjoyed Rebecca's expression in the live feed of: shedding the past and - from there - building a new template of being.
Loved the use of the word 'template'. Both a blue print description plus templ(e)plate is so close to 'temple' - the place where our soul 'dwells'. That is the Essential us. A new place created by and FOR us. Yay!
Thanks Daisy, well said that betrayed by family members is "one of the most profoundly traumatic experiences one can ever go through". It certainly is a dark night of the soul.
Having kindred spirits who understand and support others who experienced this is comforting. I feel deeply for anyone who had to experience this soul crushing abuse, so aptly named by Rebecca as "family scapegoat abuse".
I loved it as well - but it was Dr. Simon Rogoff who said it first during our collaborative Livestream. Wonderful comment to Rosalee, Daisy, thank you!
I’m struggling with addiction and can’t get too far away from you all. How can all of them be wrong plays in my mind like a tape. How can everyone in my family see things so differently from the way I do? Then I come out of the fog and remember we’re all not crazy! I relapsed again! That takes courage to admit to all of you that I’m in recovery. When the pain gets to great I bail out to a place much more painful, we know using doesn’t do anything but put my life at risk. I hurt the only two people who care about me and have to pick up the mess all over again. I wonder will i ever be normal?
Wow Rebecca, there are times you speak and I feel as if I'm looking into a mirror of my life...
I too was selectively mute - very shut down - till around aged 12.
Also I've lived 'various different lives' and only really now as an ongoing process, am I integrating those various aspects of 'Self'.
Taught myself to do the 'social thing' (quite well I might add 😆) as I knew by aged 13 if I didn't get 'past that wall' separating me from others, I'd be stuck behind it forever. Intuitively I knew the break through (through the 'glass screen of separation') had to happen.
It's only been the last few years I've realised 'yes, am neurodivergent' and frankly I love it 😃 Allows one to think in very 'neurodivergent ways' (to survive) and it's just one of the reasons am still here.
With one foot in the so called 'conventional neurotypical world' and one in the 'neurodivergent world') it allowed for successes in tutoring 'ASD' kids in an Special Education classroom.
Taught the kids techniques I'd self taught the 'Self'! Ha! 😂
Thankyou for your awesome insight and intelligence, your bravery, your honesty.
Truly it's so refreshing to hear of your life and sharing clinical experience and expertise.
We're not alone - We're a Tribe 🙏
And ain't that GRAND! 👍👍👍💯
Wow back at ya, Daisy! What an amazing story - and yes, so similar to mine, we should compare notes! I do private livestreams once a month with my paid subscribers where I let my hair down even more. And then there's my free publication here on Substack, 'The Inviolate Self' where I share in a very raw and real way - Hopefully you're already subscribed to that. Loved hearing from you and glad you could watch the livestream!
Great livestream, and thanks so much Rebecca for posing my questions to Dr. Rogoff. I really appreciate the information and discussion. Many thanks to Dr. Rogoff and Dr. Aun Ali. As Dr. Rogoff noted it was a "deceptive process" that took place. I was told I was being sent to "someone" for "help with sleep meds" as chemo/steroids made sleep difficult. I was not informed the "someone" was a psychiatrist and did not consent to an 'assessment'. In fact almost the entire conversation with the psychiatrist was me explaining the challenges I was dealing with during cancer treatment, including being so dizzy I fell and suffered a serious head injury that left me unconscious and bleeding from a head laceration requiring stitches and CT scan at the ER. There were many adverse effects of chemo, including vertigo, tinnitus and daily profuse nosebleeds, one so profuse I had to call paramedics. When my estranged eldest FSA sibling first phoned to make up damaging lies she stated that SHE "wanted me assessed" and falsely claimed I had been diagnosed with BPD in the past (totally fabricated, never even heard of BPD before) My sibling knew I was not doing well but did want to offer any help. The thing is I never asked them for any help and did not even want their help. But my sibling hatched a plan to get me labelled with BPD and thrown in the psych ward so she and another sister would not feel guilty, or look bad, for not offering any support. Their biggest concern was protecting their image and relieving their guilt and paranoia. They even garnered some sympathy for themselves. The psychiatrist actually documented she told my sister that she and my other sisters "must set their boundaries" with me - when I was not calling them and no longer had any contact. An extreme and insane case of FSA DARVO.
You’re so welcome, Rosalee, we appreciated having you there as we tried to help sort out your ongoing ‘saga’ of being misdiagnosed. I’ll tag @Dr Simon Rogoff and @Aun Ali, MBBS here so that they see this comment. Keep me posted, I’m very much engrossed in this journey you are on - although we can’t do much to help, at least you know we are with you providing emotional support - You are not alone! And yes, and EXTREME case of DARVO, one that might even make Dr. Jennifer Freyd's head spin (she coined the term)! I mention DARVO in my post that's coming out tomorrow, btw, be sure to check it out.
Oh thank you Rebecca! The support means the world to me. I had kept silent about my ordeal as I felt no one would relate to having siblings or other family members who would do such cruel things. Finding your work, book and the community members you have brought together was a Godsend. I am also grateful to Dr. Aun Ali for speaking about his experience with being erroneously labelled with BPD after dealing with so much trauma and danger before coming to Canada. Since this has been on my electronic records in Canada I learned how this label is used as a weapon to punish or dismiss anything a person says who has this label "pasted" on them. Dr. Aun Ali used the word "pasted" and it's the perfect word as the label gets stuck on like glue. I look forward to further livestreams you will have with Dr. Rogoff and Dr. Aun Ali.
Sadly, I know this indeed happens, Rosalee. I had a (former) client in Canada and she went to a pain management clinic that was supposed to be trauma-informed and next thing she knew, they had diagnosed her as BPD - which she absolutely was not! They diagnosed her with this after she begged them not to take her legally prescribed pot that she used for pain management.
And yes, as soon as that diagnosis is seen, you’re pretty much toast, as therapists, etc, then see any and all of your more ‘problematic’ (for them) behaviors as due to your being ‘Borderline’. It is most dehumanizing. Similar to Freud calling most any woman with a pulse ‘histrionic’. Again, I’ll tag @Dr Simon Rogoff and Dr. @Aun Ali, MBBS here so they can read your comment. And for sure I’ll have them on again for another livestream Collab.
I’m glad to help Rosalee, yes it’s a most isolating experience and goes against the spirit of the profession to trap people like this. I’m going to be writing more on my experience and how I managed to get my care needs met!
That sounds great Dr. Ali, I will be VERY interested to read of your experience and how you managed to deal with the situation. When I later consulted with the Director (at the same clinic) who is a Psychiatrist of 30+ years, (and who called my ordeal a "horror story", stated "the system had failed" and the other psychiatrist "needed to retract this diagnosis") I told him of how I was being denied health services and treated in a most dehumanizing manner by any health professional that reads my electronic records. He suggested maybe trying to be more "assertive" to get the health care I needed. Being assertive is good quality in some situations but I learned with that label if you are even somewhat assertive you will be viewed as 'demanding' or 'difficult' and if you are too pleasant and co-operative then you will be viewed as 'manipulative'. With that label you are in a no-win situation. Thanks and I look forward to your future writing!
100% to all of this, Rosalee - It puts you in a double bind. It is a terrible diagnosis and I understand completely why you want this off of your medical records.
Thanks for your support! Just wanted to tell you a quick update....just looked through some notes I made of appts with the Director/Psychiatrist.....At one appt he asked me "Why do you think she will not retract this diagnosis when you have provided her more than enough evidence?" I replied "I don't know, maybe arrogance". He then replied "Well that's probably part of it, but it is because it's a misdiagnosis and that means a lawsuit". But the deadline to file one had passed making it more tricky and even if I was granted an exception in Canada it is impossible to find a lawyer who would take on a lawsuit against a Doctor because of the CMPA aka Canadian Medical Protective Assoc. (an organization supported with taxpayer dollars to provide free legal representation to doctors and has a ton of money in their war chest, making it a David/Goliath no-win situation) But that was his thoughts on why she would not retract as he believes she knows she made a gross mistake.
Aun, if you want to do a dedicated collaborative livestream on this subject of misdiagnosis and the BPD diagnosis (when it was trauma) on my Substack this would be a conversation I think many would be interested in. Let me know what you think in a DM.
Just to add something for further info/thoughts on this subject. When my partner attended one of my appts with the Director/Psychiatrist, my partner (who had retired from regular force military & now worked at Dept of Defense with injured & ill soldiers, incl PTSD) inquired if a diagnosis of PTSD would help me in light of all that happened during cancer treatments, incl major abuse from medical personnel after the label was on my records. Dr. G emphatically said "No, you don't want to go that route. The diagnoses are considered to be very similar." I have always wondered about that.
Possible Translation: We gotta cover our ass so we don't end up in a lawsuit...
So Sorry for all you are dealing with Rosalee 😢—-wishing you some comfort and relief ❤️🩹.
Thank you Donna! ❤
Rest assured Rosalee, some of us do have family members who have made our lives extremely problematic. In this, believe me, you are not alone and there is no stigma in it. At all.
This is not to minimise in any way your experiences, the betrayal and abandonment trauma of family (nuclear and extended) is one of the most profoundly traumatic experiences one can ever go through. And survive.
Cause 'family' are meant to be our 'safe space'. We're wired that way. When it's not, well the devastation is very hard on the soul. Cuts very deep. Hurts like hell.
Really enjoyed Rebecca's expression in the live feed of: shedding the past and - from there - building a new template of being.
Loved the use of the word 'template'. Both a blue print description plus templ(e)plate is so close to 'temple' - the place where our soul 'dwells'. That is the Essential us. A new place created by and FOR us. Yay!
Yes I like that word and concept alot 😊
Thanks Daisy, well said that betrayed by family members is "one of the most profoundly traumatic experiences one can ever go through". It certainly is a dark night of the soul.
Having kindred spirits who understand and support others who experienced this is comforting. I feel deeply for anyone who had to experience this soul crushing abuse, so aptly named by Rebecca as "family scapegoat abuse".
I loved it as well - but it was Dr. Simon Rogoff who said it first during our collaborative Livestream. Wonderful comment to Rosalee, Daisy, thank you!
Oops sorry Dr Simon 🥹 The concept is awesome... really identified with it.
Very tired when responding, living in some stressful situations @ the mo, brain not exactly 'online' 🙃
Thanks all for the Live stream - was fab! 💯
No worries!
I’m struggling with addiction and can’t get too far away from you all. How can all of them be wrong plays in my mind like a tape. How can everyone in my family see things so differently from the way I do? Then I come out of the fog and remember we’re all not crazy! I relapsed again! That takes courage to admit to all of you that I’m in recovery. When the pain gets to great I bail out to a place much more painful, we know using doesn’t do anything but put my life at risk. I hurt the only two people who care about me and have to pick up the mess all over again. I wonder will i ever be normal?
Hi Joanna, thanks for being so honest and for sharing some of your struggle. Do try and find others in this community you can keep sharing with.
Thank you. I spent eight days in London and ride in Hyde park everyday. Love it there!
Joanna, can you rent a horse to ride there? If so, is it English style only? I only ride Western (and bareback!)